How online communities can foster hate.

[Szuchow]

 I recently read interesting book and I think that excerpt below is worth sharing as it shows how internet instead of fostering understanding reinforces primitive, tribal views:

     This analysis highlights that online communities like Stormfront may provide a space where users collectively create interpretations of reality that guide their understanding of problems and potential solutions. Narrative construction is an evolving and emergent process, an interpretive action, that comes into being when persons, along with others, attempt to make sense of self and world. Rather than harmonious and consensual, this takes place through a dialectical process fraught with conflict, hazards, and fragility, as different movement actors are fighting it out over how to frame and understand the opportunities and challenges of a changing reality. Narratives provide comfort and a sense of security; they give guidance for how we can understand reality, ourselves, and our roles in it. By participating in the processes of co-creating these narratives, we simultaneously become part of the community. In this way, the formation of narratives is intertwined with identity construction.

     While the Habermasian story suggested that political communities arrive at their position through rational deliberation – if at times founded on faulty grounds – we have here outlined a Durkheimian perspective on community reasoning. We found what can be described as a form of “tribal epistemology”, in which stories are evaluated not on common standards of evidence but on whether they support our tribe’s values and goals. What is “good for our side” and “true” becomes nearly impossible to distinguish.

     The Durkheimian perspective thus offers an explanation of the observed link between echo chambers and the rise of misinformation. As communities form within these spaces, they build their own worldviews based on what they wish to be true. These spaces thus give room for the growth of conspiracies that are disconnected from reality, as the members so strongly want something to be true to keep their connection with their community. Truth becomes a question of identity, as information is evaluated based not on common standards of evidence applied to commonly accepted facts but on its alignment with our social identity. Our very ways of knowing become defined by identity and belonging, and what we know is reduced to just another expression of who we are. [Anton Törnberg, Petter Törnberg, Intimate Communities of Hate Why Social Media Fuels Far-Right Extremism, p.95-96]*

It's a sad thing that medium which should spread knowledge instead serves to promote ignorance, hate and all around idiocy. It however explains why fools are so resistant to facts - they no longer can distinguish between their wants and reality, at least when it comes to things they held important. 

It's not world shattering I guess as the idea that truth is what is good for group is at least as old as christianity with it's pious fraud but it's nice to have an empirical support.

*https://imgur.com/a/Pk4kmGW

[no one]

In a perfect world, this would be surprising. However, hoomans are a silly little creature with atrocious tendencies for ruining perfection. They will forever find a way to devalue anything truly worthy of praise, to degrade whatever might further enhance their own potential.
It's remarkable really, how a creature barely out of the jungle, barely able to curb the dominating animal that resides within, can corrupt any venue utilized for knowledge, understanding, and harmony with anger, ignorance, and hatred.

[Mathilda]

It's part of the cycle of life hateful divisive politics and disinformation.

Now we have internet communities, social media, troll farms and AI generated disinformation and radicalised christofascists williing to spread it.

Last time we had radio and cinema.

[skyking]

We exist in these little islands of reason, and avoid contacting that morass of misinformation and hate. Some venture out like Don Quixote and take a few runs at the windmills so to speak, but for me the BS just wears me down.
I have a few haunts that vary in the insanity. Some just make hard rules about politicking. Others not so much, and the stench creeps into every corner eventually.
The other day somebody posted some poke at Biden and I clipped his wings smartly. he apologized for it and agreed it is nice to have some place free of the crap.
Same guy will post some antivax tidbit and nobody responds except we have several "like" responses and that always gets a laugh from me. He probably does not get it.

[Szuchow]

We exist in these little islands of reason, and avoid contacting that morass of misinformation and hate. Some venture out like Don Quixote and take a few runs at the windmills so to speak, but for me the BS just wears me down.

There is not much sense in talking to lunatics. When someone crossed certain threshold there is no going back.

I have a few haunts that vary in the insanity. Some just make hard rules about politicking. Others not so much, and the stench creeps into every corner eventually.
The other day somebody posted some poke at Biden and I clipped his wings smartly. he apologized for it and agreed it is nice to have some place free of the crap.
Same guy will post some antivax tidbit and nobody responds except we have several "like" responses and that always gets a laugh from me. He probably does not get it.

If place isn't strictly moderated it will sooner or later become right wing cesspool. I saw it happening on one of my favourite polish language forum and then same is happening on reddit where subhuman trash blames women for being raped or wonders if women should have right to decide about their own body.

[Szuchow]

It's part of the cycle of life hateful divisive politics and disinformation.

Now we have internet communities, social media, troll farms and AI generated disinformation and radicalised christofascists williing to spread it.

Last time we had radio and cinema.

Seems that history does move in cycles. Hopefully it will end on idiotic propaganda not with another world war.

[no one]

When you combine absurdity, animosity, and arrogance in appropriate proportions idiotic wars are the inevitable result.

The sad paradox of the hoomans:
For all their intelligence, they are without a doubt, the most senselessly stupid creature on the planet.

[Alan V]

While I can certainly understand the concern over human nature and online hate groups, we have to be careful how we address them so that we aren't part of the problem ourselves.  

I would guess visiting theists too often consider Atheist Discussion a hate group.  Our members also enjoy emotional displays at the expense of others.

Tribalism runs deep, since we all too easily take ideas as identities.

[Szuchow]

While I can certainly understand the concern over human nature and online hate groups, we have to be careful how we address them so that we aren't part of the problem ourselves.

Opposing bigotry, fascism and religious insanity hardly can be a part of the problem as it is a solution to it.

I would guess visiting theists too often consider Atheist Discussion a hate group.  Our members also enjoy emotional displays at the expense of others.

Theists (particularly christians) had their widdle feelings put on pedestal for so long that not kissing their asses is considered hate among the clowns. It's XXI century for fuck's sake, if they can't understand why their abhorrent beliefs are ridiculed it is their problem.

As for emotional displays - it ain't robots that write here so emotions will run high from time to time.

Tribalism runs deep, since we all too easily take ideas as identities.

Not much of tribalism here. I mean political stances stays in range of acceptable to public but are certainly diverse for such tiny place.

[SteveII]

Oh the irony...

[Thumpalumpacus]

Oh the irony...

You're part of the diversity here yourself. Just because you get pushback doesn't mean you're not tolerated.

[Alan V]

While I can certainly understand the concern over human nature and online hate groups, we have to be careful how we address them so that we aren't part of the problem ourselves.

Opposing bigotry, fascism and religious insanity hardly can be a part of the problem as it is a solution to it.

Potentially.

I would guess visiting theists too often consider Atheist Discussion a hate group.  Our members also enjoy emotional displays at the expense of others.

Theists (particularly christians) had their widdle feelings put on pedestal for so long that not kissing their asses is considered hate among the clowns. It's XXI century for fuck's sake, if they can't understand why their abhorrent beliefs are ridiculed it is their problem.

Again, only potentially.

Hasn't it occurred to you that we can make believers even more defensive about their beliefs, and hurt rather than help them, depending on how we behave?

As for emotional displays - it ain't robots that write here so emotions will run high from time to time.

False dichotomy.  Adults should be able to understand when they simply enjoy mocking people to feel superior.

Tribalism runs deep, since we all too easily take ideas as identities.

Not much of tribalism here. I mean political stances stays in range of acceptable to public but are certainly diverse for such tiny place.

I am saying tribalism is something everyone has to be on guard against.  It's one of those problems with human nature in general.

Nothing replaces paying attention.

[no one]

Hoomans are easy to hate. Because of their actions, not because they are different than me.

I like individual persons, I absolutely fucking despise the hoomans.

[Alan V]

Hoomans are easy to hate. Because of their actions, not because they are different than me.

I like individual persons, I absolutely fucking despise the hoomans.

Are you saying that you think hate groups are too selective in who they single out to hate?  

My stance is that emotions themselves are problematic at best, are too often misleadingly inaccurate, and are just another questionable aspect of human nature.  That is the problem with groups based on hatred or on any other strong emotions.  They are not guided primarily by rationality.

[Mathilda]

My stance is that emotions themselves are problematic at best, are too often misleadingly inaccurate, and are just another questionable aspect of human nature.  That is the problem with groups based on hatred or on any other strong emotions.  They are not guided primarily by rationality.

It's a paradox of emotions that you need them to act rationally.

But they can be deliberately stoked up and exploited so they are out of balance with other cognitive functions.

[no one]

This guy:
Hoomans are easy to hate. Because of their actions, not because they are different than me.

I like individual persons, I absolutely fucking despise the hoomans.

Alan V:
Are you saying that you think hate groups are too selective in who they single out to hate?

My stance is that emotions themselves are problematic at best, are too often misleadingly inaccurate, and are just another questionable aspect of human nature. That is the problem with groups based on hatred or on any other strong emotions. They are not guided primarily by rationality.


Not at all. Hate groups are based on blind hatred. They hate because of insignificant differences. Which is moronic. 

I hate the hoomans because they are awful creatures.

[no one]

Double poist

[Szuchow]

Potentially.

Speaking in the context of posting on this forum opposition to fascism, bigotry or religious insanity simply can't be a part of the problem. At worst some scum supporting aforementioned will read few choice words and maybe he'll cry about it  and that's all.

Hasn't it occurred to you that we can make believers even more defensive about their beliefs, and hurt rather than help them, depending on how we behave?

Hasn't it occurred to you that no one here oves believers anything, least of all pats on the head and nodding along to bullshit they spout? If they can't stand critique of their barbarous and abhorrent beliefs they can go fuck themselves to say it plainly. Entire countries cater to these scumbags so there is no reason for giving them even tiniest bit more of space.

Also let's be real, theists that come here invariably turns to be trolls. They are owed even less than supposedly honest believers.

False dichotomy.  Adults should be able to understand when they simply enjoy mocking people to feel superior.

Mocking others is perfectly adequate reaction to idiocy and different people (obviously) have different definitions of idiocy.

[Alan V]

Mocking others is perfectly adequate reaction to idiocy and different people (obviously) have different definitions of idiocy.

We also therefore have different definitions of hate groups.

[Szuchow]

Mocking others is perfectly adequate reaction to idiocy and different people (obviously) have different definitions of idiocy.

We also therefore have different definitions of hate groups.

Certainly. Mine does not include people opposing fascists or other similar scum.

[Alan V]

We also therefore have different definitions of hate groups.

Certainly. Mine does not include people opposing fascists or other similar scum.

My take on this issue is that assessing hate groups as such and effectively opposing them is much more subjective and difficult than you are maintaining, that's all.

My underlying assumption is that because of our shared human nature, we all have the capacity to behave very poorly in certain situations.  Extremists beget opposing extremists.  Just look at how Israel is behaving against terrorists right now as an example.  Are they just responding to a hate group, or have they become a hate group themselves?

There is a psychological concept called an enantiodromia.  It is the tendency of things to change into their opposites.  It is not just that we oppose something awful, but how we do so that is important.

[Rhythmcs]

How does that work, then? To avoid becoming white supremacists, should we only moderately oppose white supremacy?

[pattylt]

I think Alan is talking about not becoming as awful as our opposition. We do have to be sure we don’t become as oppressive, hateful, unreasonable, etc. as we counter our enemy.

[Rhythmcs]

-and would extreme opposition to white supremacy be oppressive, hateful, unreasonable, etc?

How oppressive, hateful, and unreasonable was the beach landing at normandy, lets start there, lol.

[Alan V]

How does that work, then?  To avoid becoming white supremacists, should we only moderately oppose white supremacy?

Be reasonable, honest, and factual, not emotional or excessive.  That's all.  It's not rocket science.

Wars are notoriously great examples of man's inhumanity to man, unless you limit your discussion to well-justified wars and ignore the many mistakes made in their execution.  And yes, there will always be controversial calls which will be discussed endlessly.  At a point, we lack all the information required to draw conclusions about such problems.

However, getting back to my main point, I don't think name-calling and brow-beating necessarily helps convince the misled and delusional that they are factually incorrect.  If anything, it makes many of them even more defensive and entrenched. That's where at least some forum behavior shades into hate group behavior IMO.

I'm probably not being very clear about all of this, but that is a part of my point. This isn't all black and white since we are all human beings. We can't escape having to pay attention to the details to be effective.