THE paradox of our age...oh, the suffering

[Dexta]

Free will. As an atheist I believe in hard determinism - we have no free will. Yet this excuses us from culpability for our actions, perhaps. The paradox is that, despite hard determinism we must be held accountable for our actions if there is to be any hope of civilisation proper. I say, paradoxes exist, get past it and hold yourself (and others) fully responsible for our actions in the name of righteous morality, never waver, never abscond. I dare say this is not common knowledge and that it should be (so I posted it on an obscure internet forum lolz). Thoughts?

[Dom]

Free will. As an atheist I believe in hard determinism - we have no free will. Yet this excuses us from culpability for our actions, perhaps. The paradox is that, despite hard determinism we must be held accountable for our actions if there is to be any hope of civilisation proper. I say, paradoxes exist, get past it and hold yourself (and others) fully responsible for our actions in the name of righteous morality, never waver, never abscond. I dare say this is not common knowledge and that it should be (so I posted it on an obscure internet forum lolz). Thoughts?

My theory is that people who are a danger to others need to be removed from society. They need to be given the basics - food, drink, hygiene, beds, books. Beyond that, they are free to earn other things they want - in a way that keeps them from any interaction with free citizens.

I think that a lot more of our actions are predetermined by physical causes, rather than ones based on free choice. I do think, however, that for most of us there is a small window for free decisions - those times when the other signals to our brain do not provide any solution. 

I am not sure what atheism has to do with determinism though?

[pattylt]

I tend to agree that we don’t really have free will, just the illusion of it. Put in exactly the same time, place and circumstances again and we would make the same choice. It’s only if we were aware of the outcome…which is a different circumstance, would we chose otherwise. I don’t like this view but, I think it’s true.

If this is ever shown to be the case, would we finally decide that our punishment system (jail, etc.) needs to be changed to address correcting and rehab into solutions that might actually work?

[Dom]

I tend to agree that we don’t really have free will, just the illusion of it.  Put in exactly the same time, place and circumstances again and we would make the same choice.  It’s only if we were aware of the outcome…which is a different circumstance, would we chose otherwise.  I don’t like this view but, I think it’s true.

If this is ever shown to be the case, would we finally decide that our punishment system (jail, etc.) needs to be changed to address correcting and rehab into solutions that might actually work?

I think some people can be re-habbed, and others can't. Some have a malfunctioning brain, such as a lack of empathy, and a whole slew of things, some now known, some yet to be found. We know a lot about the universe, but very little about our physical and mental selves. That needs to change.

[pattylt]

I tend to agree that we don’t really have free will, just the illusion of it.  Put in exactly the same time, place and circumstances again and we would make the same choice.  It’s only if we were aware of the outcome…which is a different circumstance, would we chose otherwise.  I don’t like this view but, I think it’s true.

If this is ever shown to be the case, would we finally decide that our punishment system (jail, etc.) needs to be changed to address correcting and rehab into solutions that might actually work?

I think some people can be re-habbed, and others can't. Some have a malfunctioning brain, such as a lack of empathy, and a whole slew of things, some now known, some yet to be found. We know a lot about the universe, but very little about our physical and mental selves. That needs to change.

I agree we will probably always have some people that need to be kept out of society but I think many don’t get any mental benefits from prison and are actually harmed more.  They just lack the tools and training to be productive members of society and that’s what we should be doing with them.

[Dom]

I think some people can be re-habbed, and others can't. Some have a malfunctioning brain, such as a lack of empathy, and a whole slew of things, some now known, some yet to be found. We know a lot about the universe, but very little about our physical and mental selves. That needs to change.

I agree we will probably always have some people that need to be kept out of society but I think many don’t get any mental benefits from prison and are actually harmed more.  They just lack the tools and training to be productive members of society and that’s what we should be doing with them.

People should be taught trades. There is a lot of money to be made in the trades.

[Dexta]

Free will. As an atheist I believe in hard determinism - we have no free will. Yet this excuses us from culpability for our actions, perhaps. The paradox is that, despite hard determinism we must be held accountable for our actions if there is to be any hope of civilisation proper. I say, paradoxes exist, get past it and hold yourself (and others) fully responsible for our actions in the name of righteous morality, never waver, never abscond. I dare say this is not common knowledge and that it should be (so I posted it on an obscure internet forum lolz). Thoughts?

My theory is that people who are a danger to others need to be removed from society. They need to be given the basics - food, drink, hygiene, beds, books. Beyond that, they are free to earn other things they want - in a way that keeps them from any interaction with free citizens.

I think that a lot more of our actions are predetermined by physical causes, rather than ones based on free choice. I do think, however, that for most of us there is a small window for free decisions - those times when the other signals to our brain do not provide any solution. 

I am not sure what atheism has to do with determinism though?

Determinism, no free will and atheism all go hand in hand by my mind, skipping merrily along the cosmic situation. One thing is caused by another (determinism) so we have no free will. Only belief in magic/god could change that - and I'm an atheist. I'll say again though, it might be a paradox as there is no free will, but we have to hold ourselves, and by held by others, as being responsible for our actions. To not do that = doom.

[Dexta]

I do think the deterrent component of the justice system is paramount - ie, be good or you'll suffer, to a degree. Having said that, the Scandinavian "model" with (relatively) high standards of living while incarcerated and a massive dedication to therapy and rehabilitation has a far lower rate of incarceration and recidivism than, say, the UK. They're mostly atheists in Scandinavia   lots more socialism too, less dog eat dog each man for himself free market capitalism. Crime? Kill it with kindness...and community/communism/socialism perchance.

[Szuchow]

I don't see paradox here. If we are destined to "sin" we are also destined to suffer from it - simple as that. If all things are predetermined then not only crime of guy x is but also the fact that he would be found guilty and his exact sentence.

[Dexta]

The paradox is that we probably don't have free will, but must hold ourselves responsible for our actions nevertheless.

[Szuchow]

The paradox is that we probably don't have free will, but must hold ourselves responsible for our actions nevertheless.

There is no paradox - if we are predetermined to do things we are also predetermined to think ourselves as responsible for them. Or not responsible. Or to take any stance we can think of; it's all predetermined. 

There is no room for paradox if all things are predetermined I would say.

[Dānu]

Wittgenstein said something to the effect that the majority of philosophical problems are problems of language. I suspect free will is more a matter of conceptual confusion than anything.

[Minimalist]

The paradox is that we probably don't have free will, but must hold ourselves responsible for our actions nevertheless.

We are "free" to choose from a limited number of choices in any given situation. Hence for example the "fight or flight" reaction to perceived danger... and we are far from unique in the reaction and don't need any fucking god to give us 'guidance.'

[Dom]

The paradox is that we probably don't have free will, but must hold ourselves responsible for our actions nevertheless.

We are "free" to choose from a limited number of choices in any given situation. Hence for example the "fight or flight" reaction to perceived danger... and we are far from unique in the reaction and don't need any fucking god to give us 'guidance.'

Fight or flight is no actual choice. If I am a giant facing a midget, I'm fighting. If I am the midget, I'm running away. If I have a fearful general disposition, I am running. If I feel strong, I am fighting. All these conditions are pre-set. There is no actual choice here. It would suck if there was - hmm, lemme think, wait, should I run or not? Not practical.

[Minimalist]

What if the midget is carrying an AK-47?  He's still a midget.  You are still a giant.  But there is an equalizer that has to be factored in to the equation?

[Dom]

What if the midget is carrying an AK-47?  He's still a midget.  You are still a giant.  But there is an equalizer that has to be factored in to the equation?

Yup. Instinctive fear of big weapons. Or the feeling of being a hero? You come with these, you don't acquire these things on site.

Most things we "decide" are either instinctual or based on previous learning. Many others are plain chemistry, and a lot is DNA, too, such as a lack of empathy - it doesn't exist in some of us. We don't know near enough about humans to actually decide what caused an action. We know more about the universe. But the vast majority of reactions are not actually considered, they are automatic for any of the above reasons and likely some we haven't even identified.

In other words: We don't know shit.

[Scoop]

Free will. As an atheist I believe in hard determinism - we have no free will. Yet this excuses us from culpability for our actions, perhaps. The paradox is that, despite hard determinism we must be held accountable for our actions if there is to be any hope of civilisation proper. I say, paradoxes exist, get past it and hold yourself (and others) fully responsible for our actions in the name of righteous morality, never waver, never abscond. I dare say this is not common knowledge and that it should be (so I posted it on an obscure internet forum lolz). Thoughts?

dumbest thing I ever heard.  Determinism excludes consequences ... Mental illness comes in many forms.  To bad the loudest are often the sickest.

[Dexta]

Free will. As an atheist I believe in hard determinism - we have no free will. Yet this excuses us from culpability for our actions, perhaps. The paradox is that, despite hard determinism we must be held accountable for our actions if there is to be any hope of civilisation proper. I say, paradoxes exist, get past it and hold yourself (and others) fully responsible for our actions in the name of righteous morality, never waver, never abscond. I dare say this is not common knowledge and that it should be (so I posted it on an obscure internet forum lolz). Thoughts?

dumbest thing I ever heard.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever READ, given the inescapable truth and profundity of the OP. 

Determinism excludes consequences ...

You what? 

Mental illness comes in many forms. To bad the loudest are often the sickest.

TOO bad, indeed. And?

[Dexta]

:bump:

[brewerb]

I'm in the half and half group. Some actions are predetermined, others are actual choices. As far as I know neither one can exclude the other.

When it comes to 'illusions' I've heard some say that everything in life is an illusion. I'm not in that camp.

[Chas]

My view is that minds (not brains) are so complex that reality is indeterminate - the causes of our decisions are non-computable, possibly even undecidible,
so to all intents and purposes there is no practical difference between free will and determinism.