A Cumulative Case for Christianity

[pythagorean]

Why does that matter?

Perhaps in your western culture, metaphysical chemistry may seem exceedingly important, but in some cultures, it is hardly fundamental to the faith, and there are much more important things. 

When I first met my wife, more than a quarter century ago, my wife told me the two most important things about her religion (Catholic).

How many of the (more than a billion) Catholics around the world know about either one?

Even somebody as Omniscient as you could probably list only one of the two, and your ability to list one of them would rely not on something that you heard in a World Religions class that you once took somewhere, but rather on recently acquired knowledge that you learned right here on this forum from a fellow atheist.

In my culture, we have a saying: "Don't use coordinates unless somebody holds a pickle to your head."

Yes dear. If you say so.
Take your pills now, and run outside and play.
Be sure the nurse knows where you are.

If you don't remember the one that you actually know (or once knew) about, you should ask Reverand CaveBear.

I recently gave him the coordinates of one of them, despite the fact that using coordinates is against my religion.
 
And I posted a music video to him that showed it, as a visual aid, and told him the exact timestamp where it appears, so that the good Reverand could actually see what it looks like.

I can find a wall of text that talks about it, and run it thru DeepL or ChatGPT to translate that wall of text into English, if you are truly interested in World Religions. (I heard you took a class in that once, so you probably know what a wall of text looks like.)

I have video documentaries with the world's leading experts, as well, if you are into nerdy stuff.

[pythagorean]

... my wife told me the two most important things about her religion (Catholic) ...

I looked all over in your posts for your description of what those two things were but you never mention them, not even in the post I took your statement from.

What were they?

One of them is Las Funerales del Angelitos, when an infant or small child (age 7 or under) dies. I don't understand all the details (which are all in Spanish), but the upshot is that the child's body is prepared differently than an adult, and since the child is not old enough to have time to sin, becomes an little angel, and goes directly to heaven. Without a wall of text in front of me, I don't know the details, but I think that the angelitos serve as intermediaries between humans and various Saints, as well as intermediaries for communicating with their African ancestors, and who knows what other non-human spiritual beings.

When my wife was a child, Las Funerales del Angelitos were a common occurrence.

Of course, today, given the cultural decomposition that has taken place since the construction of the Pan American Highway in the early 1930s (when my mother-in-law was born), which ushered in a period of history called "la modernidad", it is no longer practiced. The Pan American Highway was built to transport troops south through the valley to the border for a war with Peru in a wave of nationalism, and ran right past my wife's house.

La modernidad was just a side effect of a minor inconsequential war. Who knows what it was even about?

(Interestingly enough, our own western patrilinear culture is now facing problems many difficulties adapting to la modernidad, with the resulting decomposition of our own cultures, that my wife's non-western matrilinear culture faced earlier. The palenques are just the proverbial Canaries in the Gold Mine.)

Anyway, since the late 1980s and early 1990s, academia has been concerned with preserving her culture and religion (which is part of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humankind, and which has special protections under International Law), in the interests of science, as it is an intense subject of academic study, in many academic fields, so there has been a convergence of interests between nerds outside of her culture with nerds and others inside of her culture. Many people in academia have built their careers researching this.

There's a musical group of profesoras called Las Cantaoras del Patía, that is a part of this struggle.

About

Official channel of the Cantaoras del Patía.

Las Cantaoras Del Patía are a musical group established since 1988. It was born out of concern about the loss of spiritual values of the Afropatian community, and from the oral tradition we set out to rescue, value and disseminate spirituality, that is why is that we call ourselves CANTA'ORAS, because our songs are prayers to the Most High, for our beings who died, we sing praise you, save our dead and lullabies danced to our little angel children. We also sing ceremonial music in weddings, baptisms, through music and dance we wanted to leave a legacy to our boys, girls and young people using as didactic aids in our work as teachers.

Cantaoras Del Patía - YouTube

Here's a dramatization of Las Funerales del Angelitos, in a cultural demonstration and community activity led by Las Cantaoras del Patía.

Dramatización Arrullo



Arrullos

[pythagorean]

Well, I'm Québécois so you actually were right on the money.

If only I would be similarly prescient when it comes to loteries.

When I was in 7th grade, my math teacher told the class that probability means that if you flip a coin and it turns up Heads, then it is more likely to turn up Tails the next time.

I didn't really pay much attention in school, since I had my own interests that nobody else I knew had any idea about, but occasionally a teacher would say something that I noticed (usually a math teacher).

I'm pretty sure that it was the first time that I was suspended from school for arguing with a teacher.

I probably shouldn't have called it "The Law Of Probability Karma" out loud. That's the sort of thing that children are supposed to keep to ourselves in front of adults. 


This random graph fact will blow your mind | Rado graph and its godlike properties



Kenny Rogers - The Gambler



NERDS: A Manifesto | A Capella Science

[airportkid]

I looked all over in your posts for your description of what those two things were ... What were they?

One of them is ... when a child younger than 8 eight years old dies ... its funeral is different because, not being old enough to have sinned, its soul goes directly to heaven and becomes an angel ...

And what's the other most important thing about Catholicism your wife said?

[pythagorean]

One of them is ... when a child younger than 8 eight years old dies ... its funeral is different because, not being old enough to have sinned, its soul goes directly to heaven and becomes an angel ...

And what's the other most important thing about Catholicism your wife said?

Some 500 years ago, her ancestors started running away from their masters. They were called "cimarrones". (The word originally applied to cattle who escape and run away to the mountains, but in the early 1500s, it was also applied to escaped slaves. This is one reason why my wife is more properly referred to as a "cimarrón" rather than an "illegal", as she was called here in this country when we first met and they tried to kick us out of the country with a 10 year ban on even applying for re-entry a quarter century ago.)

They established a palenque, called "El Palenque del Castigo", in el Valle del Patía. 

In the valley, there was a little mountain, called el cerro del Manzanillo, so her ancestors climbed to the top and looked around, to see if they could find Africa, and when they could not, they played their drums and cried.

Whenever their descendants felt sad, they too would climb to the top, to see if they could find Africa. And when they too could not, like their ancestors they played their drums and cried.

Over time all of those tears coalesced to form a lake.

El cerro del Manzanillo is a magical mythological and physical place, and is located at the very center of the world, the Axix Mundi, where heaven meets earth and hell.

As it happens, my wife was born right next to el cerro del Manzanillo, and more than 60 years ago, there was a rumor going around Patía that la Virgén María had been appeared at the top of it, so her and her friend climbed to the top, to see if they could find Her. 

Some of the best views of el cerro del Manzanillo can be found in this 2003 documentary by Dr. Paloma Muñoz, an Anthropologist who is, so far as I know, the world's leading expert in my wife's religion. But be forewarned, it get's a little spooky in places.

(Audio-generated closed captions in the language of your choice.)

Bambuco Patiano - Bambuco Negro




On Google Earth, these links will take you there. The first shows a sign pointing to it, along the Pan American Highway, the second is a few feet ahead, looking west, and the 3rd is an ariel view.

Google Earth


Google Earth


Google Earth


If you are on an i-phone, it might ask you if you want to install Google Earth Pro for free. The correct answer is "yes".

On a pc, they'll likely just open in your browser.

[airportkid]

To summarize:  according to your wife, the two most important things about Catholicism are:

Children who die before their 8th birthday go directly to heaven as sinless souls and become angels, and

A small mountain near Medellin Colombia is the center of the world, the site of a ritual where successive generations would ascend the small mountain searching for Africa, crying in disappointment when unable to see Africa, whose tears created a lake at the foot of this mountain.

These are the two most important things about Catholicism.  Such Catholic practices as transubstantiation, confessions, prayers to assorted saints, and appointing a pope, among many other things important to more than a billion people around the world, are of lesser importance than the above.

Roger that.

[Bucky Ball]

One of them is ... when a child younger than 8 eight years old dies ... its funeral is different because, not being old enough to have sinned, its soul goes directly to heaven and becomes an angel ...

And what's the other most important thing about Catholicism your wife said?

Large majorities of "Catholics" disagree with official church positions on many major topics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Catholicism

Unbaptized babies are told by their evil god "go to Purgatory, you evil child, and suffer for what Adam did millions of years ago, see how merciful I am, even though Jebus already paid for your sin".

We were taught the age of consent was 7 years old. The Roman Catechism says nothing about "two things". Whoever cooked that up is obviously a heretic. There is nothing in all of Christian or Catholic theology that claims children turn into angels. Angels and humans have different natures. https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library...ation-5182

[pythagorean]

...near Medellin...

No. Not near Medellin. (Unless you are an astrophysicist or something! In which case you get points just for getting the continent right.)

Check Google Earth again. (You can drive anywhere you want by clicking on the arrows, so you can actually drive to Medelline by clicking again and again. I suggest you back up and drive north. You might have to click a lot. Count the clicks, ok?)

And I'm not into unscientific summaries of anecdotal oral stories.

I prefer science.

Example - 'Click' (Official Video) (OUT NOW)

[pythagorean]

Whoever cooked that up is obviously a heretic. There is nothing in all of Christian or Catholic theology that claims children turn into angels. 

What's your point? 

The palenques were founded by sorcerers. 

And my wife's ancestors in particular killed more white folks that either you or I can imagine, just to survive these last 500 years. Her culture was the Wakanda of Cauca. Are you really prepared to go back in time and refight all those wars? Have you read any history? 

In my religion, irrationality itself is a heresy. 

That and beans.

How much of modern mathematics are you prepared to toss into the drink in your efforts to defend the orthodoxy of rationality?

You seem to be suffering from some sort of satanic panic.

You can't expect us atheists mathematicions to side with the Spanish Inquisition, can you?

It goes against our history and culture.

You are on the wrong side of history.

Look, I understand that you are afraid to rock the boat, but us atheist need to show courage here and now in the 21st century.

What was up with Pythagoras?

Pythagoras had a problem with beans and irrationality. What really happened? I don't know! The square root of two is irrational, and beans are delicious.



The Witch Hunt in Cartagena- History of Cartagena



pete seeger which side are you on

[Bucky Ball]

bla bla bla
more stupid videos 

You can't seriously think anyone here actually believes you are a mathematician.
Why is it you keep posting the same stupid videos ?

[pythagorean]

You can't seriously think anyone here actually believes you are a mathematician.

What are your culture's beliefs?

I'll bet you're from one of those cultures that believes in reality.

My culture gave up that belief a long, long time ago.

Your belief in reality is culturally based.

I mean, seriously!

Do you believe that I'm a frickin' Physicist just because I work from home?

Maybe I'm just retired. 

How Imaginary Numbers Were Invented

A general solution to the cubic equation was long considered impossible, until we gave up the requirement that math reflect reality.



Work From Home (Physics Version) | A Capella Science

[pythagorean]

bla bla bla
more stupid videos 

I've noticed that you never reply in good faith to anything that is actually said, or any of the facts in the videos.

You always say "blah, blah, blah", and "more stupid videos", but never respond to the actual content.

Why is that?

Is this the level of discourse that you really want to encourage in this forum?

Have you ever considered responding to substance with substantive responses?

That would make this a much more interesting forum, wouldn't it?

We could attract more nerds if we approached this discussion a little differently.

We could have a real exchange of ideas between freethinkers.

Again I ask you.

How much of modern mathematics are you prepared to toss into the drink for the sake of your fundamentalist beliefs?

Can't we all just get along?

[Bucky Ball]

How much of modern mathematics are you prepared to toss into the drink for the sake of your fundamentalist beliefs?

None.
I've never even considered watching any of your videos, since you came here.
You're on ignore.

[mordant]

How much of modern mathematics are you prepared to toss into the drink for the sake of your fundamentalist beliefs?

None.
I've never even considered watching any of your videos, since you came here.
You're on ignore.

Yeah same decision just taken here. The basic problem being that his posts are incoherent and I'm not here to read tea leaves trying to understand what someone is saying amidst a constant vomit of weird and often irrelevant videos.

I mean, I never thought I'd miss just an old fasioned Wall O'Text ™ although sometimes we get that too as a bonus.

[SYZ]

PURPOSE:
I started with versions of this years ago in this forum—motivated by the reoccurring trajectory of individual discussions, inevitably spiralling towards contentions that Christianity is irrational, has no evidence, reducible to mere 'faith', or attributed to conspiratorial schemes...

Yes, all of these.

Faith is defined as "belief without evidence".      

   End of story.

[Minimalist]

Stevie is easily impressed by what he wants to hear.

[Rainprooffredturnip]

According to Pew Research, 50 % of Catholics don't even know what "transubstantiation" means.

Why does that matter?

It matters because children grow up all over the planet oblivious to the damage that their ingrained beliefs will cause.

It matters because we are living in a world that is still relying on false hope. I'm sick of watching the news.
I'm sick of thoughts and prayers.

I'm sick of people full stop.

[Bucky Ball]

Apologetics and apologists are universally distrusted and disliked, even by religionists.
https://jwwartick.com/2019/03/25/whats-w...ologetics/

[Minimalist]

Something is wrong with apologetics.

Yes.... and it is a feature not a bug.  It goes all the way back to the beginning of this jesus horseshit as in this silly piece of bleating from Justin "Martyr" c 160 CE.

“But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.” Justin Martyr, First Apology

Bullshitting comes as naturally as breathing to religitards.

[pythagorean]

Why does that matter?

It matters because children grow up all over the planet oblivious to the damage that their ingrained beliefs will cause.

It matters because we are living in a world that is still relying on false hope. I'm sick of watching the news.
I'm sick of thoughts and prayers.

I'm sick of people full stop.

Perhaps you haven't met the right people, yet?

I have.

You aren't the first to feel that way, and you are likely not the last, given current trends.

How do you think my wife's ancestors felt 500 years ago when, as cimarrones, they first started running away from their masters?