Sexual abuse in women's prison is rampant...also water is wet

[Thumpalumpacus]

Odd, folks arguing over who better understands a rapist's motivations, and none with a psychology degree.

[Vorpal]

Odd, folks arguing over who better understands a rapist's motivations, and none with a psychology degree.

It's almost like arguing over politics without a political science degree.  Or making humorous observations having never done stand up.

[epronovost]

I was always interested in your view not some outdated out-of-touch sociologist.  Her overly broad interpretations still effect us today as you may note in Saxon's stance.

Fair enough. If you want to ask questions about my stance on the nature of rape, I'm willing to present my position on the issue. I do agree that Brownmiller's prose was very impactful and is still used a lot today; I actually partially blame cop shows for that since they often use that language in them. It can be problematic to a certain point.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Odd, folks arguing over who better understands a rapist's motivations, and none with a psychology degree.

It's almost like arguing over politics without a political science degree.  Or making humorous observations having never done stand up.

Not really. Most people engage in politics or humor.

Most people don't engage in rape. It's a little more specialized.

[Vorpal]

It's almost like arguing over politics without a political science degree.  Or making humorous observations having never done stand up.

Not really. Most people engage in politics or humor.

Most people don't engage in rape. It's a little more specialized.

Really?  How did things go when you ran for office?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Not really. Most people engage in politics or humor.

Most people don't engage in rape. It's a little more specialized.

Really?  How did things go when you ran for office?

I can opine intelligently on politics without running for office. Can you opine intelligently on rapist psychology without studying it?

[SaxonX]

I wasn't speaking of any particular case just as a general principle. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my last post.

Okay thanks for the clarification.  Could you (or anyone reading who knows) clarify for me the reasoning behind the Rape=power formula?  It's always seemed to me like a "Experts say, so just believe" kind of thing.  How can motivation for rape be divorced from some element of pure "I rape because it's sex, and sex simply feels physically good" motivation?

Oh simple it's essentially 

"I'm raping this person because I enjoy forced sex and I have scruples about engaging in it" vs " I don't enjoying raping this person for the sexual high I simply want to enforce the idea I can whatever I want and this person is powerless to stop me "

[Vorpal]

Really?  How did things go when you ran for office?

I can opine intelligently on politics without running for office. Can you opine intelligently on rapist psychology without studying it?

Certainly as well as you can opine  about what motivates a school shooter or a Proud Boy  on January 6th.  And it is not without any study whatsoever. Do you really think you need expertise to chat on the Internet?

[epronovost]

I can opine intelligently on politics without running for office. Can you opine intelligently on rapist psychology without studying it?

Certainly as well as you can opine  about what motivates a school shooter or a Proud Boy  on January 6th.  And it is not without any study whatsoever. Do you really think you need expertise to chat on the Internet?

To be fair, school shooters and members of extremist violent groups often let us know in detail why they commit those crimes since, in their case, violence is a means to a political end. Surely you can see how those two subjects require different levels of knowledge or expertise to discuss intelligently. Plus, school shooters and members of far-right violent political groups represent a much more homogenous demographic than people who commit acts of sexual violence.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I can opine intelligently on politics without running for office. Can you opine intelligently on rapist psychology without studying it?

Certainly as well as you can opine  about what motivates a school shooter or a Proud Boy  on January 6th.  And it is not without any study whatsoever. Do you really think you need expertise to chat on the Internet?

It sure helps, especially when one is talking about something one has no experience in.

[airportkid]

... Do you really think you need expertise to chat on the Internet ... ?

Only if being credible and taken seriously matters.

[Vorpal]

Epronovost,

Did you have a chance to review the details in regard to Ms. White? She had ample training and yet fell victim the dynamic I described earlier in the thread, ie transactional access to intimacy afforded to her with the power of a prison official. She orchestrated alone time with the male prisoner which would never been possible if my gender safeguards were in place.

[Vorpal]

Really?  How did things go when you ran for office?

I can opine intelligently on politics without running for office.   Can you opine intelligently on rapist psychology without being a rapist?

Before your edit, you said this^.   We can talk about running for office because we have knowledge of the rules for voting, the dynamics of a campaign, whether a position holds water or not, etc.  We can opine about instances of rape because we have a knowledge of human sexuality, power dynamics, the effects of alcohol, traits of psychopathic persons, etc.  Singling out sexual assault as  
a taboo subject because of lack of experience does not hold water when you think it is fine to discuss other topics from a similar distance.  What's the real reason you think the subject should be taboo?

[Vorpal]

How is this for credibility?  Here, is my analysis based solely on Brownmiller and another researcher who critiqued her:

The idea that rape is an act of control rather than an act motivated by sexual desire has been from the start very odd and unnecessarily dichotomous.  Rape almost always has at its center the desire for sexual gratification. Often there is a component of wanting to control and to dominate.  Sometimes the two are merged in sadistic pleasure where the sexual gratification is fed by the power difference and humiliation.

The control and domination is a part of the very definition of rape but not necessarily the motivation for the rape. It is a means to the end and not an end in and of itself in a large number of occurrences.  In date rape situations, the rapist would most often wish for acquiescence rather than resistance.  So, domination is not the point.

Most rape victims are females in their teens or twenties.  It is NOT evenly distributed by age. How do we interpret this?  Sexual attractiveness is a key to choosing a victim.  Vulnerability is another smaller key.  Sometimes an easier mark is chosen due to the wish to "succeed" and get away with it.  Here, sexual attractiveness is balanced against other matters.  

A minority of rapes occur with humiliation at the center and with little wish for sexual gratification.  Same gender rapes with objects rather than sexual organs fall in line with this category.

I am not sure why the notion that rape is not about sex trope developed but it's counterproductive. Horny guys wanting sex need to know they can cross the line even though power and control is not part of their original plans.

This is independent and without knowledge of the current understandings in the field.   How close did I come to them?

 


  Today, rape is widely considered to be motivated by a wide array of desires that range from domination, social pressures to sexual gratification to a mix of both and others. Motivations were in fact so entangled, numerous and varied from rapist to rapist that research has moved further into the domain of justifications;  .

[epronovost]

Epronovost,

Did you have a chance to review the details in regard to Ms. White? She had ample training and yet fell victim the dynamic I described earlier in the thread, ie transactional access to intimacy afforded to her with the power of a prison official. She orchestrated alone time with the male prisoner which would never been possible if my gender safeguards were in place.

I did read a bit on the case and? Yes, if things were different for example if Ms White was not allowed to work with male prisoners it would not have happened. Then again, she did work as a correctional officer for over 15 years prior to those events and was declared "employee of the year" several time which implies she did a good job at it in the past. If Launderdale County Jail had followed the recommendation of the panel I quoted in the OP, Ms White's contacts with Mr White would have risen suspicions and be sanctioned. I would also like to note that the recommendation of the panel would also help reduce risks of evasion or guard corruption that are not linked to love or sexual relationships which is much more common. We can certainly posit a wide variety of solutions that would have prevented such an event or at least reduced it's likelihood, you can always write to your State representative or join prison reform activist organizations if you believe your ideas are significantly better than the recommendations of the panels of experts I quoted in the OP for example. While they certainly would have prevented that specific case, I don't think your proposal is as good as it addresses only a relatively small facet of the problem and entail risks and costs that I believe are too great to use as a "first solution". Other ideas should be put in place first and your solution kept as a backup if those continues to fail at mitigating the issues.

[epronovost]

How is this for credibility?  Here, is my analysis based solely on Brownmiller and another researcher who critiqued her:

The idea that rape is an act of control rather than an act motivated by sexual desire has been from the start very odd and unnecessarily dichotomous.  Rape almost always has at its center the desire for sexual gratification. Often there is a component of wanting to control and to dominate.  Sometimes the two are merged in sadistic pleasure where the sexual gratification is fed by the power difference and humiliation.

The control and domination is a part of the very definition of rape but not necessarily the motivation for the rape. It is a means to the end and not an end in and of itself in a large number of occurrences.  In date rape situations, the rapist would most often wish for acquiescence rather than resistance.  So, domination is not the point.

Most rape victims are females in their teens or twenties.  It is NOT evenly distributed by age. How do we interpret this?  Sexual attractiveness is a key to choosing a victim.  Vulnerability is another smaller key.  Sometimes an easier mark is chosen due to the wish to "succeed" and get away with it.  Here, sexual attractiveness is balanced against other matters.  

A minority of rapes occur with humiliation at the center and with little wish for sexual gratification.  Same gender rapes with objects rather than sexual organs fall in line with this category.

I am not sure why the notion that rape is not about sex trope developed but it's counterproductive. Horny guys wanting sex need to know they can cross the line even though power and control is not part of their original plans.

This is independent and without knowledge of the current understandings in the field.   How close did I come to them?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean with this post. Are you asking me to rate how close the paragraph you wrote in the quotation box is close to the current understanding of rape in sociology and criminal psychology? If that's the case, I would say you are overall wrong, but on the right track on some things.

[Vorpal]

Epronovost,

Did you have a chance to review the details in regard to Ms. White? She had ample training and yet fell victim the dynamic I described earlier in the thread, ie transactional access to intimacy afforded to her with the power of a prison official. She orchestrated alone time with the male prisoner which would never been possible if my gender safeguards were in place.

I did read a bit on the case and? Yes, if things were different for example if Ms White was not allowed to work with male prisoners it would not have happened. Then again, she did work as a correctional officer for over 15 years prior to those events and was declared "employee of the year" several time which implies she did a good job at it in the past. If Launderdale County Jail had followed the recommendation of the panel I quoted in the OP, Ms White's contacts with Mr White would have risen suspicions and be sanctioned. I would also like to note that the recommendation of the panel would also help reduce risks of evasion or guard corruption that are not linked to love or sexual relationships which is much more common. We can certainly posit a wide variety of solutions that would have prevented such an event or at least reduced it's likelihood, you can always write to your State representative or join prison reform activist organizations if you believe your ideas are significantly better than the recommendations of the panels of experts I quoted in the OP for example. While they certainly would have prevented that specific case, I don't think your proposal is as good as it addresses only a relatively small facet of the problem and entail risks and costs that I believe are too great to use as a "first solution". Other ideas should be put in place first and your solution kept as a backup if those continues to fail at mitigating the issues.

That's all well and good.  I do want to reiterate that my position is not that opposite gender guards be totally eliminated.  Rather alone time is to be eliminated as far as possible -- forbidden in all instances except emergency.  This will likely involve redundant remote viewing- to keep guards accountable. Incidentally, this may involve having an unequal distribution of guards depending on the gender of the prisoners.  This would be valid and justified exception to Constitutional safeguards.

[SYZ]

Where does Trump's behaviour with E. Jean Carroll
fit into this scenario?  He was charged with sexual
abuse for digitally "raping" Carroll, with the judge
saying that he could easily have been charges with
rape rather than "abuse".

The jury was instructed that it could find that Trump
"raped" Carroll only if it found that he forcibly penetrated
her vagina with his penis.    Whereas here in Australia,
digital penetration with one's fingers (or any other object)
is nonelective in attracting a charge of rape.

Bizarrely, digital rape is outside of the New York penal law.
The presiding judge said that New York’s legal definition of
“rape” is “far narrower” than the word is understood in
“common modern parlance.”

  —Lucky for Trump.    

[Vorpal]

How is this for credibility?  Here, is my analysis based solely on Brownmiller and another researcher who critiqued her:



This is independent and without knowledge of the current understandings in the field.   How close did I come to them?

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean with this post. Are you asking me to rate how close the paragraph you wrote in the quotation box is close to the current understanding of rape in sociology and criminal psychology? If that's the case, I would say you are overall wrong, but on the right track on some things.

This was in response to Airhead Kid. But, thanks for your input.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I can opine intelligently on politics without running for office.   Can you opine intelligently on rapist psychology without being a rapist?

Before your edit, you said this^.

Right, because it had the subtext of calling you a rapist and I didn't want to do that; it's unfair. So I edited it.

   

We can talk about running for office because we have knowledge of the rules for voting, the dynamics of a campaign, whether a position holds water or not, etc.  We can opine about instances of rape because we have a knowledge of human sexuality, power dynamics, the effects of alcohol, traits of psychopathic persons, etc.  Singling out sexual assault as  
a taboo subject because of lack of experience does not hold water when you think it is fine to discuss other topics from a similar distance.  What's the real reason you think the subject should be taboo?

I don't think it should be taboo. I just think speculation carries less weight than information. So -- have you studied this in detail, or are you speculating?

[epronovost]

That's all well and good.  I do want to reiterate that my position is not that opposite gender guards be totally eliminated.  Rather alone time is to be eliminated as far as possible -- forbidden in all instances except emergency.  This will likely involve redundant remote viewing- to keep guards accountable. Incidentally, this may involve having an unequal distribution of guards depending on the gender of the prisoners.  This would be valid and justified exception to Constitutional safeguards.

My apologies, I was under the impression that you wanted to prevent co-ed guard staff in prison. My mistake, I should have read you more carefully. This seems indeed very reasonable and has been recommended several times too even by guards themselves for safety reasons. Of course money and staff resources are a problem.

[Vorpal]

 I don't think it should be taboo. I just think speculation carries less weight than information.  So -- have you studied this in detail, or are you speculating?

I have studied to a degree that is less than expert knowledge, and I hypothesize based on evidence and logic.  I post to get feedback on the results, not to have my character assassinated. 

[Thumpalumpacus]

 I don't think it should be taboo. I just think speculation carries less weight than information.  So -- have you studied this in detail, or are you speculating?

I have studied to a degree that is less than expert knowledge, and I hypothesize based on evidence and logic.  I post to get feedback on the results, not to have my character assassinated. 

I didn't "assassinate your character". I questioned your qualifications. Stop being melodramatic.

[Vorpal]

I have studied to a degree that is less than expert knowledge, and I hypothesize based on evidence and logic.  I post to get feedback on the results, not to have my character assassinated. 

I didn't "assassinate your character". I questioned your qualifications. Stop being melodramatic.

I refer to a longer standing popular trend.  You guys are being almost nice to me today.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I refer to a longer standing popular trend.  You guys are being almost nice to me today.

I'm trying to be civil to you. I should think that would be appreciated.