Sexual abuse in women's prison is rampant...also water is wet

[epronovost]

Someone can be meticulous about obtaining consent out of concern for the self, to avoid the consequences of the law rather than to honor agency.

While this is certainly true, in effect though it makes no difference. That person must care about another person's agency and personal limit. Also, fear of criminal consequences is ridiculously low when one consider that rapes and sexual assaults in general are the major violent crimes with, by far, the lowest level of conviction and the lowest level of reporting from the victims. At best, about 15-20% of all rapes are reported and these are fairly optimistic estimates; of those reported less than 2% result in a conviction. I would not call that very scary hence why rapes and sexual assault are fairly common when one consider their gravity. "A culture of impunity" has been employed too often when discussing rape and sexual assault in my opinion to pretend that the law has enough bite to actually have a strong dissuasive force in and on itself.

I would also tend to mention that this type of person is highly at risk of committing sexual offenses. Their level of care is so low it is raising a red flag even though it is not absent or even negative as it would be in rapists. Most people would see this as a giant red flag and would do well not to present any form of weakness or put any form of trust in them; let alone both.

Claiming that theft is not about the value of the item stolen, but rather it is about domination, does not really pass the smell test, does it?

Could it possibly be because rape and theft are different and are done by different people for different kinds of motivations to fulfill different needs in different contexts? Gee, it's like you are making a false comparison there AND a strawman too. Also "a smell test" is nothing more than a fallacious appeal to common sense. It's not because something isn't obvious, unintuitive or a paradox that it is incorrect. You got to dig in a little deeper and it's not by re-hashing poorly the already relatively poor critique of Palmer that you will.

There is nothing wrong with the observation that rape is a crime of violence;
There is nothing wrong with the observation that all consenting sexual intercourse require a minimal level of care and even tenderness since minimal amount of care is necessary to seek consent;
There is nothing wrong with the separating urges, from desires from wishes in a psychological or philosophy of the mind context as they allow to better understand and classify mental experiences, thoughts and processes;
There is nothing wrong with the observation that selfish/narcissistic people impose their urges, desires and wishes unto others by the use of force, deceit or a variety of other forms of coercion which makes them domineering towards others;

What is wrong of course is how crude the domination label is.

[Vorpal]

Epronovost,

I suggest you stop declaring comparisons false. The comparison is done to illustrate something. I suggest you answer the question about the issue used for contrast and then inform your opponent of reasons why the issues are so different that nothing practical can be gleaned. Why should subverting the obvious motive of one act on the basis of an incongruent component be reasonable in one arena but not in another? Why pretend that sex is an act of love when it is often only an act of lust ? People often desire to have sex for sexual gratification alone with no real care about their partner beyond socially accepted courtesy. Adding greater and greater levels of discourtesy does not remove the sexual nature of the desire.

People sometimes have fairly sincere ideas about commitment that evaporate post coitus. There is no good reason to conflate this with rape. Love fraud should have its own set of penalties that are less severe than rape. It is virtually impossible to prove someone lied rather than just changed their minds.


There is something wrong with declaring that acts can only be motivated by one thing when they are demonstrably shown to be motivated by several, sometimes simultaneously.

[Vorpal]

Brownmiller's mistake regarding sadomasochism is understandable and perhaps the her least egregious error.
Paraphilias are hard for vanilla-sex people to comprehend.

And she was focusing on gender dynamics. Including other dynamics like heterosexism would be more thorough.

[Vorpal]

What of the story of the middle aged unfulfilled prison guard who formed a sexual relationship with a dangerous inmate. She later orchestrated his escape, and ends up dead by her own hand? In dealing with incarcerated felons, systemic safeguards need to be in place to reinforce strict boundaries. Political correctness needs to stay in the back seat.

[Inkubus]

Who is this middle aged unfulfilled prison guard to whom you refer? Without a link there's no point in resurrecting this thread.

[SaxonX]

Rape is 100% about power not sex. Sexual abuse has always been effective means of humiliating someone as the level intimacy makes it all worst.

[jerry mcmasters]

Rape is 100% about power not sex. Sexual abuse has always been effective means of humiliating someone as the level intimacy makes it all worst.

I've heard this all the time and I guess it's true...?  'cause authorities say so..?  But damn men really like fucking so if you are a man without morals and ethics and you like fucking and you have the opportunity to rape, how are we able to isolate "power" from the base desire to get off?  Seems like a distinction without a difference to me.

[Vorpal]

Who is this middle aged unfulfilled prison guard to whom you refer? Without a link there's no point in resurrecting this thread.

https://nationalpolice.org/main/what-doe...-officers/

[Vorpal]

The other inmates call it a mutual love affair. Officials call it wild manipulation by the male inmate. If the situation involved reversed gender, how would that interpretation change?

[SYZ]

NBC News report:  Officer Vicky White and prisoner Casey White escape.

https://theworldwatch.com/videos/1606861...cape-jail/

[Discretionary Warning:  This site contains
material suitable only for mature viewers.]

[SaxonX]

Rape is 100% about power not sex. Sexual abuse has always been effective means of humiliating someone as the level intimacy makes it all worst.

I've heard this all the time and I guess it's true...?  'cause authorities say so..?  But damn men really like fucking so if you are a man without morals and ethics and you like fucking and you have the opportunity to rape, how are we able to isolate "power" from the base desire to get off?  Seems like a distinction without a difference to me.

Simple this isn't someone who is simply immoral who wants sex this is the case of an immoral person weaponizing sex in the name of control.

[SaxonX]

The other inmates call it a mutual love affair.  Officials call it wild manipulation by the male inmate.   If the situation involved reversed gender, how would that interpretation change?

 It wouldn't

[Vorpal]

The other inmates call it a mutual love affair.  Officials call it wild manipulation by the male inmate.   If the situation involved reversed gender, how would that interpretation change?

 It wouldn't

When a male guard accepts sexual favors in exchange for more canteen access,  the guard is abusing his power as a guard to sexually assault the female prisoner.  When a male prisoner offers sexual compliments and promise of love and gets greater access to canteen, sex, and an escape route, he is abusing the guard through manipulation. True?

[SaxonX]

 It wouldn't

When a male guard accepts sexual favors in exchange for more canteen access,  the guard is abusing his power as a guard to sexually assault the female prisoner.  When a male prisoner offers sexual compliments and promise of love and gets greater access to canteen, sex, and an escape route, he is abusing the guard through manipulation. True?

Yes and ?

[Vorpal]

When a male guard accepts sexual favors in exchange for more canteen access,  the guard is abusing his power as a guard to sexually assault the female prisoner.  When a male prisoner offers sexual compliments and promise of love and gets greater access to canteen, sex, and an escape route, he is abusing the guard through manipulation. True?

Yes and ?

And you claim gender has no part in this interpretation?

[SaxonX]

Yes and ?

And you claim gender has no part in this interpretation?

No I don't think gender plays much of a role.

[Vorpal]

In the case of the female guard, she responded positively to the inmate commenting "nice ass". She had wished she could have stripped for a living. She arranged for bunkmates to be bribed to keep quiet so she could enter the cell to have sex. She set up a burner phone so she could communicate. A lot of what she did was her own idea. Isn't it possible that she was not really manipulated except by self delusion?

[SaxonX]

In the case of the female guard, she responded positively to the inmate commenting "nice ass".   She had wished she could have stripped for a living. She arranged for bunkmates to be bribed to keep quiet so she could enter the cell to have sex. She set up a burner phone so she could communicate.  A lot of what she did was her own idea.   Isn't it possible that she was not really manipulated except by self delusion?

I don't think self delusion is likely

[jerry mcmasters]

I've heard this all the time and I guess it's true...?  'cause authorities say so..?  But damn men really like fucking so if you are a man without morals and ethics and you like fucking and you have the opportunity to rape, how are we able to isolate "power" from the base desire to get off?  Seems like a distinction without a difference to me.

Simple this isn't someone who is simply immoral who wants sex this is the case of an immoral person weaponizing sex in the name of control.

Are you talking about all rape or just this case?  You said "Rape is 100% about power not sex" not "This case of rape is 100% about power not sex."  I'm not keeping up with the particular case discussed here so I have no opinion on it being about sex, power, or some combination.

[SaxonX]

Simple this isn't someone who is simply immoral who wants sex this is the case of an immoral person weaponizing sex in the name of control.

Are you talking about all rape or just this case?  You said "Rape is 100% about power not sex" not "This case of rape is 100% about power not sex."  I'm not keeping up with the particular case discussed here so I have no opinion on it being about sex, power, or some combination.

I wasn't speaking of any particular case just as a general principle. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my last post.

[jerry mcmasters]

Are you talking about all rape or just this case?  You said "Rape is 100% about power not sex" not "This case of rape is 100% about power not sex."  I'm not keeping up with the particular case discussed here so I have no opinion on it being about sex, power, or some combination.

I wasn't speaking of any particular case just as a general principle. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my last post.

Okay thanks for the clarification.  Could you (or anyone reading who knows) clarify for me the reasoning behind the Rape=power formula?  It's always seemed to me like a "Experts say, so just believe" kind of thing.  How can motivation for rape be divorced from some element of pure "I rape because it's sex, and sex simply feels physically good" motivation?

[epronovost]

I wasn't speaking of any particular case just as a general principle. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my last post.

Okay thanks for the clarification.  Could you (or anyone reading who knows) clarify for me the reasoning behind the Rape=power formula?  It's always seemed to me like a "Experts say, so just believe" kind of thing.  How can motivation for rape be divorced from some element of pure "I rape because it's sex, and sex simply feels physically good" motivation?

"Rape=power formula" was popular in the 80's and early 90's but is now widely rejected as is the idea that rape is analogous to sex or a means to acquire sexual pleasure for people who struggle in relationship with others which was the competing theory at the same time. Today, rape is widely considered to be motivated by a wide array of desires than range from domination, social pressures to sexual gratification to a mix of both and others. Motivations were in fact so entangled, numerous and varied from rapist to rapist that research has moved further into the domain of justifications; how rapist justify and explain their actions. What was found out is that rapists hold more strongly than your average person to so called "rape myths" and, in the case of male rapist assaulting women, are significantly more misogynistic than your average person too. In other words, rapists have varied motivations, but justify their actions by appealing to the same set of beliefs and justification (AKA rape culture).

[Vorpal]

epronovost has changed his stance!

 Rape itself is physical violence. If committing violence is the goal, they succeed since rape is violent.  

If it's both, it's not sexual.  

Tenderness is not part of the definition of sex.

No indeed, but it is part of the definition of sexual desire which is not the same as the definiton of sex. Sex and sexual desire are two different things. As mentionned before, nobody denies that rape involves sexual acts or that rape has a sexual dimension to it. The argument of Brownmiller is that sex is motivated by power and domination not the want for sexual coitus.    

 

 
I would also like to note, again, that nobody is denying that rape involves sexual acts and sexual pleasure for the perpetrator, but that these things are not why a rapist choose to rape. They are a pleasant side effect not a prime motivation for acting in such way. 

[epronovost]

epronovost has changed his stance!

I did not change my personal stance. In the post you quoted, I'm either explaning or correcting your misconceptions and misunderstandings about the work of Brownmiller and others like her. I was not defending my own position on the issue and repeated several times that I disagreed with Brownmiller's (and others like her) views. You and I have actually never discussed my personal stance on this issue nor have we really discussed the contemporary consensus on this issue either; at least as far as I can remember. We pretty much only debated 2nd wave feminist theories on the subject.

[Vorpal]

I was always talking about my stance only referenceing the works of others to bring up possibly relevant concepts. But, that is arm chair philosiphizing to you, an unworthy enterprise. I was always interested in your view not some outdated out-of-touch sociologist. Her overly broad interpretations still effect us today as you may note in Saxon's stance.