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Skeletons Found at Waterloo
#1

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
War is hell.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62148618

Quote:Battle of Waterloo skeletons uncovered in Belgium


Quote:Among the finds in the latest dig, the remains of three amputated limbs were uncovered at Mont-Saint-Jean farm, which was the site of the Duke of Wellington's main field hospital during the battle.

Tens of thousands died in the fighting, but few remains have been found. According to contemporary accounts, large numbers of bones were collected, ground down and used as fertiliser on farms.


Mont St. Jean was quite a bit behind the actual combat line so these are men who survived their wounds long enough to be transported to the field hospital where the doctors could finish killing them.
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#2

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-13-2022, 03:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: War is hell.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62148618

Quote:Battle of Waterloo skeletons uncovered in Belgium


Quote:Among the finds in the latest dig, the remains of three amputated limbs were uncovered at Mont-Saint-Jean farm, which was the site of the Duke of Wellington's main field hospital during the battle.

Tens of thousands died in the fighting, but few remains have been found. According to contemporary accounts, large numbers of bones were collected, ground down and used as fertiliser on farms.


Mont St. Jean was quite a bit behind the actual combat line so these are men who survived their wounds long enough to be transported to the field hospital where the doctors could finish killing them.

Most of the care provided to British troops was not provided by qualified physicians but by surgeons who trained by being apprenticed to other surgeons and who took a very basic examination to qualify and varied from very good to absolutely awful. In a nod to history a modern British surgeon goes from being called Dr to being called Mr/Mrs/Miss when they fully qualify in surgery because in the old days a surgeon was not entitled to use the prefix Dr.
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#3

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
According to numerous sources, the French field surgeons were best. Which doesn't say much, considering the general butchery surgery was at that time. But some of them, I'd had to look up their names, were known to amputate a limb in less than 30 seconds.

The losses of a single battle in any given Napoleonic encounter would be unimaginable by today's standards. 75.000 men lay dead after Borodino. 45.000 Russians and 30.000 Frenchmen. Waterloo was a cakewalk in comparison. "Only" 26.000 men lost their lives.

They used line infantry, after all. Which means, walking up at each other and unloading their muskets at point blank, without wavering. Formation and loading time was everything in these battles. It must have been a horrible carnage, even compared to WWI or WWII.

It is said, it took months to burry all the dead of the battle of Leipzig. There's a diary by an undertaker, speaking of the horrors he saw. With all the dangers involved. It borders on a miracle that the region didn't suffer a major outbreak of some plague in the aftermath of the battle, with all the decaying corpses in the fields and probably the rivers too.
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#4

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
I guess, that's what you were refering to, min. In any case, interesting video.

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#5

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Indeed that dropped into my Youtube feed last night.  Like so much of archaeology, incredible luck to find it!

Still, the lack of medical care for the wounded would be regarded as an atrocity today but it was the way it was back then.  What amazed me was that during the Crimean War the French medical and logistical services were so much better than the British.  And of course the Russians were just inept.
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#6

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-19-2022, 06:58 PM)Minimalist Wrote: What amazed me was that during the Crimean War the French medical and logistical services were so much better than the British.  And of course the Russians were just inept.

The medical services of the French, according to numerous sources, was already better during Napoleonic times. As I already said, I'd had to look up their names, but I know, there were french surgeons being at the head of their game even back then. At least when it came to limiting the suffering of their patients during amputations, which was state of the art back then, when it came to shattered bones.

Far as I know, the first war when casualties were really limited due to medical services, was the American civil war. Of course, it was still atrocious compared to today's standards, but you at least stood only a ten percent chance of being dead, as compared to the Napoleonic wars which their huge casualty lists.

The one part about the video that got to me the most was digging up corpses to grind them into bone meal. Take that for respect of your fallen.
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#7

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
The French had established Les Invalides in the 17th century as a retirement home/hospital for old soldiers so they were clearly giving some thought to the issue.

Still, they had no concept of bacteria and many wounded men later died of infections while the doctors "prayed" for them to recover.

And while it is true that ACW soldiers did benefit from the experience of the British/French in Crimea it is also true that twice as many still died of disease than from battle wounds.  No.  War was hell.
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#8

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
This is a timeworn closet, I suppose it was to be expected.
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#9

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
I knew this before, but here's some piece of armor worn by a french soldier killed at Waterloo. A cannon ball went right through him, so death must have been swift. He was probably blown to pieces before even knowing what hit him.

[Image: Napolean-Armor-cannon-Ball-puncture.jpg?...width=1440]

The interesting fact is, we know, who wore this armor. I forgot his name, but he was just 23 years old and he died just one month after he received his call to arms.


Quote:According to documents found on Fauveau after his death, the young man was a dairy farmer prior to the war and had a "long, freckled face with a large forehead, blue eyes, hooked nose, and a small mouth.” According to some accounts, the soldier was due to get married shortly before he was conscripted into Napoleon's army. Pollard said Fauveau likely had less than seven days of military training before he was sent off to fight.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43...cannonball
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#10

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Seems odd that a raw recruit would be drafted into the Carabiniers which were a heavy cavalry unit.  Still, the 100 Days Campaign was always a scramble for the French and maybe he brought his own horse?
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#11

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-21-2022, 05:05 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Seems odd that a raw recruit would be drafted into the Carabiniers which were a heavy cavalry unit.  Still, the 100 Days Campaign was always a scramble for the French and maybe he brought his own horse?

Seeing as he was a dairy farm worker, bringing his own horse seems unlikely. I can't imagine a man of his standings to afford a horse.
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#12

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
I agree.  He should have gone into the infantry with a background like that.  Napoleon needed men there, too.

You know, in the American Civil War for the first couple of years the Federal cavalry was almost worthless.  One of their commanders, Justin Kilpatrick earned the nickname "Kill Cavalry" meaning his own.  This is in marked contrast to the exploits of Confederate horsemen under the command of J.E.B. Stuart, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Wade Hampton, and Fitzhugh Lee.  These were drawn from volunteers who were bred under a cavalier style environment where horsemanship was prized.  They weren't merely farm boys or factory workers from the cities who first had to be taught to ride a horse let alone ride one in combat.  Eventually the Union cavalry learned and the Confederates suffered from attrition but early on it was no contest.

Really if you look at the kit of a French Carabinier, as this re-enactor shows,

[Image: e73ff2d7b782c137b799508ef0c36df2--napole...iforms.jpg]

why would they go through the trouble when they could have just assigned him to an infantry battalion or an artillery battery?  How much training does it take to shove a wet sponge down the barrel of a cannon and pull it out again?

There is some piece of this story that is unknown.
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#13

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-21-2022, 07:37 PM)Minimalist Wrote: why would they go through the trouble when they could have just assigned him to an infantry battalion or an artillery battery?  How much training does it take to shove a wet sponge down the barrel of a cannon and pull it out again?

We had these units also, though not in polished armor, but with a black tint. They were highly trained professionals and I doubt your usual french currasier was fresh meat either. The story actually beats me, but the guy was born in 1792, so only 23 years old, obviously had no experience with horses and was assigned to the heavy cavalry anyway. There's actually a record of him being conscripted only one month before Waterloo. That's hardly sufficient to train a man to operate under these conditions.

As for "Kill Cavalry", Westmoreland in Vietnam got his nickname "Wastemoremen" also. As did Mc Arthur, who got the nickname of Bunker Doug. There was even a song based on the battle march of the Republic on Bunker Doug. He didn't seem to be the bravest fellow in the eyes of his men.
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#14

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Indeed there was.

Tongue 

https://bataanproject.com/dugout-doug/
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#15

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
I bet by that time Napoleon was happy with whatever he could scrape up.
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#16

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Not really.  Entire French regiments deserted to the Emperor as soon as he began his march to Paris.  The Allies (monarchist shits that they were) may have liked the Bourbons but the French thought they were scumbags.  In addition to his Armee du Nord, General Rapp was off to the East observing - and eventually kicking the Austrians in the butt at La Souffel - with another army.  And General Suchet was off with the Army of the Alps.  

But where Napoleon was short was in the cavalry arm.  He once said "Without cavalry, battles are without result" and his problem was not only trained cavalrymen but also remounts.  Which simply makes the question of why would they give some lout of a farm hand a horse and the armor of a Carabinier even more questionable?


It really makes no sense.
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#17

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-21-2022, 10:19 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But where Napoleon was short was in the cavalry arm.

Hmm, I always thought the man was short, period. Not the tallest man on earth.
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#18

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Limey propaganda, Dom.  In fact, he was average height for a 19th century Frenchman...about 5'6".  France and Britain used different measuring systems
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#19

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-21-2022, 10:19 PM)Minimalist Wrote: But where Napoleon was short was in the cavalry arm.  He once said "Without cavalry, battles are without result" and his problem was not only trained cavalrymen but also remounts.  Which simply makes the question of why would they give some lout of a farm hand a horse and the armor of a Carabinier even more questionable?


It really makes no sense.

Well, if he's short of cavalrymen, he's stuffing anything into a saddle he can. The Japanese did the same with pilots in 1945.
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#20

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-21-2022, 10:19 PM)Minimalist Wrote: It really makes no sense.

Warfare at that time was all about discipline, holding formations and not wavering under fire. To train that takes time, lots of time, because of the nature of the beast.

I really don't understand, how anyone being conscripted, one month before the battle of Waterloo, was part of the heavy cavalry. Unless he held that position before, at a tender age, by today's standards, but that wasn't the case in Napoleonic times.
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#21

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Maybe he was the bastard son of some nobleman who gave him a horse and armor?

Nothing else makes any sense.  As noted, there were plenty of other jobs that a raw recruit could be given which he could learn tolerably well in a short space of time.

The whole point of going to muskets in the first place was that the loading/firing drill could be taught quickly to any dumb farm boy who came along.
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#22

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-22-2022, 03:58 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The whole point of going to muskets in the first place was that the loading/firing drill could be taught quickly to any dumb farm boy who came along.

But the whole purpose of line infantry was to not break rank under fire. Discipline and drill was above all.

But if you take note of him being 23 when he finally fell, he was 18 in 1810, 20 when Napoleon invaded Russia and 21 when the battle of Leipzig occured. It may well be, records lost, he already was a veteran when he was reconscripted in may of 1815.
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#23

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Possible but certainly not the implication given in the documents that were reported.
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#24

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
(07-22-2022, 04:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Possible but certainly not the implication given in the documents that were reported.

Even though Napoleon was in dire need of mustering an army on short notice, I can't quite go with someone being picked a month prior to Waterloo from a dairy farm to make it into an elite unit. There are numerous essential posts in any army, not needing any or only basic training. Not least of all, food logistics, which would have been a rather ideal spot for a guy of his profession.
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#25

Skeletons Found at Waterloo
Prior to the introduction of rifled muskets the cavalry, particularly the heavy cavalry, was used as shock troops.  The idea was to advance on a battle line and scare the infantry into forming square.  If you're doing it right, tagging along with the cavalry is a horse artillery battery which would then open fire with canister on the square.  At the same time, an infantry brigade would come up to support the guns and send out skirmishers to harass the square with musket fire. Sooner or later something would have to give.  If the infantry broke and ran the cavalry would charge after them and cut them down.

So this means that not only does the carabinier or cuirassier have to be able to ride a horse, he has to be able to ride a charging horse, keep one hand on the reins and control the animal while drawing his saber with the other hand.  I agree.  You do not learn how to do all that in a month.


Artist's rendition of Murat's great charge at Eylau.

[Image: joachim-murat-leads-a-cavalry-charge-the...l7SHcTop4=]
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