What does God actually do?

[Astreja]

One thing I despise is when, after successful brain surgery on a friend, the Christians say that the surgeon's hands "were guided by God".  The fact that their friend didn't die on the table meant that the patient's friends had their prayers "answered".

Oh, I hate that sentiment.  Absolutely fucking loathe people who hijack someone else's achievements.

[SYZ]

I thought of another cognitive dissonance in Christianity during my walk today. Have you heard that saying, "God helps those who help themselves"? I was always taught this in the manner of "if you pray to pass the test, you have to put the work in and study. You can't just sit around and expect to pass the test based on prayer alone."

Your quote above is man's tradition not God's word...

True to an extent, but nonetheless splitting hairs.

The phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is a motto that emphasizes the importance of
self-initiative and agency. The expression is known around the world and is used to inspire people
for self-help. The phrase originated in ancient Greece as "the Gods help those who help themselves"
and may originally have been proverbial. It is illustrated by two of Aesop's Fables and a similar
sentiment is found in ancient Greek drama.

in his Philoctetes, Sophocles (409 BCE) wrote, "No good e'er comes of leisure purposeless;
And heaven ne'er helps the men who will not act".

Mere men ascribed to this sentiment long before the purported appearance of the imaginary Christian god.

[Cheerful Charlie]

Hence,
Many who hold such view as the quote above are partying on the platform of ignorance that comes from wrong doctrines. It was never taught in the scriptures

What this means is that your statement is not only not found in scripture, it was never a scriptural text. Both in explanation, interpretation and teaching of word, it failed the test

Bible teaching is summarized as below:
HEAVEN HELPS THOSE WHO COME TO HIM (IT).

That is, a helpless man, found help in the graciousness of a gracious god.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Paul's theology teaches predestination and grace is a gift from God, not earned.

Prevenient grace.  God chooses who he will to make a man or woman willing to come to belief.

[skyking]

After reading the thread I think the "hiding" answer was the best.

[Black Lion]

All you guys wrote hasn't addressed the point that.


1. OP tried to put on God what he never said in his word.

2. That man's help is not in riches that you have nor is it in man's achievement.

You all are saying much but leaving much out of context.

That the text in the OP had been considered historically, scripturally, doctrinally and logically to be false on God. OP has admitted it. The rest of you only want to make an accusation but you got it wrong. Your decision on the scriptures shouldn't be based on what is generally said or accepted around but what the scriptures taught.

That is the correction you should receive.

[Inkubus]

Before replying y'all might want to read this.

What is Truth?
The donkey told the tiger, "The grass is blue."
The tiger replied, "No, the grass is green ."
The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?"
The lion replied: "If you believe it is true, the grass is blue."
The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."
The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence."
The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue..."
The tiger asked the lion, "Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?"
The lion replied, ′′You've known and seen the grass is green."
The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?"
The lion replied, "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!"
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t.
When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.

Don't argue with donkeys!

[Minimalist]

Rumor has it that every 13.7 billion years or so he lights one up.

[mordant]

Your decision on the scriptures shouldn't be based on what is generally said or accepted around but what the scriptures taught.

Except that the scriptures are, by design, vague enough that there isn't wide agreement on many important aspects of what they supposedly mean. That is why you have people drawing completely different conclusions from the same book. Arminianism vs Calvinism is a good case in point. The role of grace vs works, of god's judgment vs his mercy and love, and other nuances of emphasis. Major differences in practical application ranging from people you couldn't tell from the general population to people wearing clothing from the 19th century. There was a group called the Shakers in the mid 19th century that were entirely celibate, not just the clergy. Predictably they aren't around anymore. The list is basically endless.

And then we have people coming here on a regular basis like you are claiming to have carefully studied it and accomplished what theologians for millennia have failed at: figuring out the correct interpretation.

All holy books are vague templates upon which the current generation can project whatever they want, to validate what they need to in the moment.

There are dozens of major and conflicting traditions of Christianity alone, and technically tens of thousands of denominations. And that doesn't even include the free-formers who decide for themselves what they want it to mean.

No thanks. Left that behind decades ago, and don't miss it at ALL.

[Bucky Ball]

Bible teaching is summarized as below:
HEAVEN HELPS THOSE WHO COME TO HIM (IT).

Not sure which Bible you're reading ... and I sure hope you have nothing to do with teaching it.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The gods are in charge in your cult. Jesus said so.

[Astreja]

Your decision on the scriptures shouldn't be based on what is generally said or accepted around but what the scriptures taught.

Those teachings are sufficiently daft that they made the decision for me.  I was a de facto atheist by age seven.

And you do realize that you're talking primarily to non-believers, don't you?  You keep saying things like "God's satisfaction," "God's word," etc., as if the existence of your divine buddy were a fait accompli.  Nope, not around here it isn't.  Your interpretation of these archaic books is just one among many, and you have not given us any reason to take you seriously.  Get down off your high horse instead of pretending that you have any qualifications to teach us.

[Dancefortwo]

All you guys wrote hasn't addressed the point that.


1. OP tried to put on God what he never said in his word.

2. That man's help is not in riches that you have nor is it in man's achievement.

You all are saying much but leaving much out of context.

That the text in the OP had been considered historically, scripturally, doctrinally and logically to be false on God. OP has admitted it. The rest of you only want to make an accusation but you got it wrong. Your decision on the scriptures shouldn't be based on what is generally said or accepted around but what the scriptures taught.

That is the correction you should receive.

Well, you've completely missed a major problem with your book. The Bible isn't evidence.  It was written by people who believed a god existed but the bible in itself is not evidence, it's a book of claims.  You can quote any passage from it, you can quote entire pages from the Bible but it STILL is not evidence of a god.  What you need, Black Loin, is falsifiable evidence outside of your book of claims and since all gods are unfalsifiable (along with invisible unicorns) you're stuck using a circular fallacy and no evidence at all that your god exists.    Arguing about what the Bible says is downright laughable.

ETA: And saying "look at the trees" doesn't cut it either because you have to acutally demonstrate that a god made that tree and no theists has ever been able to do that.

[Black Lion]

@mordant

You referred to Christians as an entity, your claim posed as one who have met all Christians in this world and know the quote they used. I keep telling you that, not all Christians hold such view and such isn't even biblical

You rush too much to conclusion. And mostly they are based on assumption. You will need to be open to be taught what exactly the Bible teaches than making assumption informed from wrong classes you have taken in your sojourn in Christian meetings. 

Why did I say that? 
Thinking I am an Arminianist or a Calvinist is a funny assumption. I never hold any of the view. I hold Bible view and have many reservation on the views above. 

But note, like I said. Man is absolutely helpless. That is not Calvinism, that is the scriptures. But your helplessness is not God's doing, it's man's doing. Hence God never imposed or forced such helpless situation in man. 



You need to ask for explanation, you must learn the true Bible, that is how your criticism will be real. All these you are saying about the Bible is absolutely in divergence to all the Bible stands for, they were never taught in the Bible. 


What I mean is that, you have been fed with wrong information and your knowledge and mindset is built around this. You must seek proper knowledge of what you criticized, that is the wisdom in being a good critic. 


But for now, all your points about the Bible, as I read they, they are only showing me one thing. You have a wrong background in scriptural truth, you have been fed with lies by one who either deliberately or accidental fed you with false doctrine. It shows in all your write up.


I will only start to take your criticism serious when you start presenting the Bible the right way in your criticism. For now I don't see you as a critic of the scriptures, but one who need to be taught properly and rightly.

[mordant]

@mordant
I will only start to take your criticism serious when you start presenting the Bible the right way in your criticism. For now I don't see you as a critic of the scriptures, but one who need to be taught properly and rightly.

I was suckled on the Bible and ended up spending a year at Bible institute after high school, and spent every minute I could spare volunteering at church for years after. I have likely forgotten more of the Bible than you currently know.

Everyone who claims to "rightly" understand the scriptures simply dismisses anything that they disagree with as "error". You are no different in that regard. And back in the day, I was no different. I know from experience how believers insulate themselves from the cognitive dissonance created by their departures from reason. It spares you having to engage in honest discourse, and most importantly, it means you don't have to engage with the actual points anyone raises with you.

Unless and until you leave the reality distortion field that you exist in, as I did, you'll never even see the arrogance in your statement I quoted above, much less the thin air under you feet where you think you are standing on solid ground.

But ... you do you.

[SYZ]

...I keep telling you that, not all Christians hold such view and such isn't even biblical.

ALL Christians believe, or have faith, that supernatural entities and paranormal phenomena
exist in the real world.  This points to a common delusional state of mind shared by the
2.382 billion Christians inhabiting the planet—or, effectively, an entity.

You rush too much to conclusion. And mostly they are based on assumption.

Just as your misplaced assumption that the bible is inerrant, and that God and gods exist.  Those
are assumptions simply because you have NO empirical evidence supporting those claims.

All these you are saying about the Bible is absolutely in divergence to all the Bible stands for, they were never taught in the Bible.

 
Of course they are!  Because we're atheists who regard your holy book as—put simply—a collection
of half-truths, misinformation, mythology, fabrications, duplicity, and deliberate lies.

What I mean is that, you have been fed with wrong information and your knowledge and mindset is built around this.

Just as you and every Christian on the planet has been.  Fed by people tasked with convincing you
from an early age—ministers of religion, parents, evangelists, school teachers etc—that biblical
scripture is infallible, reliable, well-founded, and flawless. Which of course, to any skeptical 21st-century
investigator, it is not.  You've fallen for the same trap that you (wrongly) accuse us of falling for.

You have a wrong background in scriptural truth, you have been fed with lies by
one who either deliberately or accidental fed you with false doctrine. It shows in all your write up.

Before you talk about "scriptural truth" you have to provide evidence proving it.  Which you've not done.
You've simply and uncritically accepted—without any of the due skepticism that a competent researcher
must have—that what you've read in your holy book, and/or what you've been told by people with a vested
interest is in fact all true.

I will only start to take your criticism serious when you start presenting the Bible the right way in your criticism. For now I don't see you as a critic of the scriptures, but one who need to be taught properly and rightly.

As an atheist, I really don't give two flying fucks as to whether or not you take our criticism "seriously".
You seem to have forgotten this is an atheist web site. And for your information, I gave up critiquing
the bible around 60 years ago—it just wasn't worth my time, and distracted me from studying the
works of the scientists, mathematicians and logicians, and historians.

[Cavebear]

Bible teaching is summarized as below:
HEAVEN HELPS THOSE WHO COME TO HIM (IT).

Not sure which Bible you're reading ... and I sure hope you have nothing to do with teaching it.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The gods are in charge in your cult. Jesus said so.

But you are one of them and him. In a basic sense, you are brothers.

[Black Lion]

You speak on what you don't have knowledge of, in such class, you are to sit and listen and learn. Trying to prove points in such room, will seriously expose your ignorance. 


Teddy was speaking about the scripture, I only gave an absolute summary of what the scriptures taught, yet because you guys want to drive a false point, you are working on making a point without having point. 

I put it to you again. That you guys have been exposed to false teaching of the scriptures. All your premise of argument against the scriptures were never in the first place addressing what the scriptures taught. You are only been derailed by false information you are fed with and that's seems to be what you built your whole knowledge foundation on. 


You will need to start getting a proper explanation of what the scripture taught, so that your argument will truly attack the rudiments of the faith. Currently your arguments put you in the same space as those who exposed you or preached to you the false doctrine that form your experiences against the scriptures in life. It's more like throwing stones to hit the moon. 

You are scripture driven from the position of belief. It has never occurred to you to examine historical context, prose, accuracy, or translation. You accept it all at face value with no doubts whatsoever. That's why you're a Christian; you are have been conditioned to accept it all as truth and never question anything.

And that's why you will never understand how other non Christians view your belief system. You are incapable of understanding it because you don't want to hear it in the first place.

These are rather bold and presumptuous assertions to make about someone you've only interacted with online, in my opinion. I kinda doubt you have enough information to come to such conclusions.

[Black Lion]

@mordant
I will only start to take your criticism serious when you start presenting the Bible the right way in your criticism. For now I don't see you as a critic of the scriptures, but one who need to be taught properly and rightly.

I was suckled on the Bible and ended up spending a year at Bible institute after high school, and spent every minute I could spare volunteering at church for years after. I have likely forgotten more of the Bible than you currently know.

Everyone who claims to "rightly" understand the scriptures simply dismisses anything that they disagree with as "error". You are no different in that regard. And back in the day, I was no different. I know from experience how believers insulate themselves from the cognitive dissonance created by their departures from reason. It spares you having to engage in honest discourse, and most importantly, it means you don't have to engage with the actual points anyone raises with you.

Unless and until you leave the reality distortion field that you exist in, as I did, you'll never even see the arrogance in your statement I quoted above, much less the thin air under you feet where you think you are standing on solid ground.

But ... you do you.

It's unsurprising to know you were sucked in Bible classes, but unfortunately, reading the Bible or attending the best Bible school or becoming the Pope isn't the yard stick of understanding the scriptures. 

The scriptures are evident of itself and your thoughts and explanation must be in knowing to all that is said from Genesis to revelation. 

Whether you are a critic or a supporter of it, your argument must be sufficient enough to prove that the scriptures was consistent in teaching what you posit as true or as false. [/i]That is how theology is handle.


The Bible having different interpretations is not the purpose of the OP

If you are much concern of that, create a different thread to address this, then we can talk there. 

But for now, we keep focus on your immediate assumption on Christians around the world

Take this from my simple heart.
Your days in Bible class or school weren't wasted but definitely you were taught wrongly. You read the scriptures, but the understanding provided to you aren't scriptural. It is well evident even today, that there are places the scriptures are read but not understood. Like I told you, a primer in understanding of the scriptures is consistency of explanation of its theology. Your knowledge of the scripture missed this. 


So, please, do allow a proper explanation of the scriptures for you so that you can pick your criticism. I am not here to win argument but I will do all to ensure you interpret the scripture properly even if you want to criticize it. That is what is called honesty and I found that lacking in many who want to criticize the scriptures.

[i]I have heard a million times that atheist are open minded, but the reality of it is false. If you are open minded, you will seek to know the truth of what is written not the lies you have been fed with and hold to form a systematic ideology against a system of knowledge. 


If you are open to discussion as you always claim to be open minded, we will examine all you held as and against Christian taught from the scripture and you will find a better landing for your criticism. This doesn't have to convince you about the scriptures but at least, let you judge a book in its honestly and your criticism will come from a true knowledge of what the Bible teacher have the burden to defend.


But as it stands now. You aren't speaking the scriptures heart but what is falsified and spread deliberately or indeliberately for personal gains of erroneous teachers or recognition among the preachers of such falsehood.

I hope you get this and be open to it.

[SYZ]

Fuck me!

What a load of puerile drivel.  ^ ^ ^    

[Cavebear]

@mordant
I will only start to take your criticism serious when you start presenting the Bible the right way in your criticism. For now I don't see you as a critic of the scriptures, but one who need to be taught properly and rightly.

I was suckled on the Bible and ended up spending a year at Bible institute after high school, and spent every minute I could spare volunteering at church for years after. I have likely forgotten more of the Bible than you currently know.

Everyone who claims to "rightly" understand the scriptures simply dismisses anything that they disagree with as "error". You are no different in that regard. And back in the day, I was no different. I know from experience how believers insulate themselves from the cognitive dissonance created by their departures from reason. It spares you having to engage in honest discourse, and most importantly, it means you don't have to engage with the actual points anyone raises with you.

Unless and until you leave the reality distortion field that you exist in, as I did, you'll never even see the arrogance in your statement I quoted above, much less the thin air under you feet where you think you are standing on solid ground.

But ... you do you.

It's unsurprising to know you were sucked in Bible classes, but unfortunately, reading the Bible or attending the best Bible school or becoming the Pope isn't the yard stick of understanding the scriptures. 

The scriptures are evident of itself and your thoughts and explanation must be in knowing to all that is said from Genesis to revelation. 

Whether you are a critic or a supporter of it, your argument must be sufficient enough to prove that the scriptures was consistent in teaching what you posit as true or as false. [/i]That is how theology is handle.


The Bible having different interpretations is not the purpose of the OP

If you are much concern of that, create a different thread to address this, then we can talk there. 

But for now, we keep focus on your immediate assumption on Christians around the world

Take this from my simple heart.
Your days in Bible class or school weren't wasted but definitely you were taught wrongly. You read the scriptures, but the understanding provided to you aren't scriptural. It is well evident even today, that there are places the scriptures are read but not understood. Like I told you, a primer in understanding of the scriptures is consistency of explanation of its theology. Your knowledge of the scripture missed this. 


So, please, do allow a proper explanation of the scriptures for you so that you can pick your criticism. I am not here to win argument but I will do all to ensure you interpret the scripture properly even if you want to criticize it. That is what is called honesty and I found that lacking in many who want to criticize the scriptures.

[i]I have heard a million times that atheist are open minded, but the reality of it is false. If you are open minded, you will seek to know the truth of what is written not the lies you have been fed with and hold to form a systematic ideology against a system of knowledge. 


If you are open to discussion as you always claim to be open minded, we will examine all you held as and against Christian taught from the scripture and you will find a better landing for your criticism. This doesn't have to convince you about the scriptures but at least, let you judge a book in its honestly and your criticism will come from a true knowledge of what the Bible teacher have the burden to defend.


But as it stands now. You aren't speaking the scriptures heart but what is falsified and spread deliberately or indeliberately for personal gains of erroneous teachers or recognition among the preachers of such falsehood.

I hope you get this and be open to it.

You poor sap. You can't tell the difference between made-up theistic commandments and general social understandings far older than religion. The requirements of tending to the elderly and not stealing from or killing a neighbor go back WAY further than organized religions. Organized religions merely codify local practical practices...

[Alan V]

The requirements of tending to the elderly and not stealing from or killing a neighbor go back WAY further than organized religions.  Organized religions merely codify local practical practices...

... and mythologize the origins of morality, just like they mythologize the origin of the world.  Organized religions simply redefine such things as coming from God, and the credulous believe them. 

Trying to win arguments by defining yourself as good and others as bad is the very definition of self-righteousness.

At some point, religious people need to question their assumptions and listen to different, better interpretations.

[Free]

You speak on what you don't have knowledge of, in such class, you are to sit and listen and learn. Trying to prove points in such room, will seriously expose your ignorance. 


Teddy was speaking about the scripture, I only gave an absolute summary of what the scriptures taught, yet because you guys want to drive a false point, you are working on making a point without having point. 

I put it to you again. That you guys have been exposed to false teaching of the scriptures. All your premise of argument against the scriptures were never in the first place addressing what the scriptures taught. You are only been derailed by false information you are fed with and that's seems to be what you built your whole knowledge foundation on. 


You will need to start getting a proper explanation of what the scripture taught, so that your argument will truly attack the rudiments of the faith. Currently your arguments put you in the same space as those who exposed you or preached to you the false doctrine that form your experiences against the scriptures in life. It's more like throwing stones to hit the moon. 

You are scripture driven from the position of belief. It has never occurred to you to examine historical context, prose, accuracy, or translation. You accept it all at face value with no doubts whatsoever. That's why you're a Christian; you are have been conditioned to accept it all as truth and never question anything.

And that's why you will never understand how other non Christians view your belief system. You are incapable of understanding it because you don't want to hear it in the first place.

These are rather bold and presumptuous assertions to make about someone you've only interacted with online, in my opinion. I kinda doubt you have enough information to come to such conclusions.

Actually you've made your position crystal clear here numerous times and thereby the conclusion I reached is the only reasonable conclusion that can be parsed from your statements.

[jimhabegger]

It's unsurprising to know you were sucked in Bible classes, but unfortunately, reading the Bible or attending the best Bible school or becoming the Pope isn't the yard stick of understanding the scriptures. 

The scriptures are evident of itself and your thoughts and explanation must be in knowing to all that is said from Genesis to revelation. 

Whether you are a critic or a supporter of it, your argument must be sufficient enough to prove that the scriptures was consistent in teaching what you posit as true or as false. [/i]That is how theology is handle.


The Bible having different interpretations is not the purpose of the OP

If you are much concern of that, create a different thread to address this, then we can talk there. 

But for now, we keep focus on your immediate assumption on Christians around the world

Take this from my simple heart.
Your days in Bible class or school weren't wasted but definitely you were taught wrongly. You read the scriptures, but the understanding provided to you aren't scriptural. It is well evident even today, that there are places the scriptures are read but not understood. Like I told you, a primer in understanding of the scriptures is consistency of explanation of its theology. Your knowledge of the scripture missed this. 


So, please, do allow a proper explanation of the scriptures for you so that you can pick your criticism. I am not here to win argument but I will do all to ensure you interpret the scripture properly even if you want to criticize it. That is what is called honesty and I found that lacking in many who want to criticize the scriptures.

[i]I have heard a million times that atheist are open minded, but the reality of it is false. If you are open minded, you will seek to know the truth of what is written not the lies you have been fed with and hold to form a systematic ideology against a system of knowledge. 


If you are open to discussion as you always claim to be open minded, we will examine all you held as and against Christian taught from the scripture and you will find a better landing for your criticism. This doesn't have to convince you about the scriptures but at least, let you judge a book in its honestly and your criticism will come from a true knowledge of what the Bible teacher have the burden to defend.


But as it stands now. You aren't speaking the scriptures heart but what is falsified and spread deliberately or indeliberately for personal gains of erroneous teachers or recognition among the preachers of such falsehood.

I hope you get this and be open to it.

I attended Babble classes, but I don't remember anything about yardsticks, or any kind of corporal punishment at all.

[jimhabegger]

The Bible having different interpretations is not the purpose of the OP

Okay, so let's go back to the OP.

Tell me again, what are you saying that your god actually does?

[jimhabegger]

For anyone who might be trying to make sense out of Black Lion's posts, you might want to know that they are not always coming from the same person, in every discussion here. They are coming from a few different people in another forum, responding to posts copied and pasted from here to there. I haven't checked to see if all the ones in this thread are from the same person or not, but in the other threads where Black Lion was posting, they were definitely not all coming from the same person. Also, if you want to know more about the context of Black Lion's posts, search for "What Does God Actually Do," in the Nairaland forum.

[Astreja]

Your days in Bible class or school weren't wasted but definitely you were taught wrongly.

So were you.  You ended up believing stupid shit.

FOADIAFACARBCOC19.