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Bill Maher on the College Scam
#26

Bill Maher on the College Scam
Don't blame me, they told me in 3rd grade that I sucked at math. I was destined to be a liberal arts student. But it's alright, I make enough money to make up for it.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#27

Bill Maher on the College Scam
For the sake of argument, Epy, let's say that all of that is true.

I still don't see how that helps us going forward.

Not when stuff like this keeps coming out.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/r...ica-177680

Quote:1. How acute is the STEM education and talent deficit in the United States?  

The STEM shortage in the DIB is quickly approaching crisis status. As stated by Arthur Herman, “We are fast approaching another Sputnik moment, we can’t afford to ignore.” The United States must create a “state-of-the-art STEM education strategy” to cope with this reality. The report assesses if the United States fails to modernize and adjust it likely will face a “permanent national security deficit.” The United States should not be surprised by this development as prominent U.S. business and government leaders have long been sounding the alarm about the decay of the U.S. education system.

That report focuses on defense capabilities but what about industrial capabilities?  Do we cede that to China too because math and science is just too damned hard?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#28

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-07-2021, 07:10 PM)Fireball Wrote:
(06-07-2021, 06:02 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(06-07-2021, 05:51 PM)Fireball Wrote: Class of '83, for me. Difference is I was a physics major. There were plenty of slackers and party animals at my university, but they didn't take those classes.

Yeah. Like try getting the frat guys into a Anthro class...

Frats where I went had copies of the tests for several tough classes. One chem prof apparently used the same final a couple of times, but got wise to some high scores and changed the test. Some frat guys took that final and used the memorized answers for the old test and failed miserably. I don't know about everywhere else, but the frat guys at my alma mater were the biggest bunch of jerks who weren't football players. Though of course, there was some overlap.

I LOVE it when cheaters cause their own downfall! One thing I learned from college was that you went there to LEARN something. I was never great at studying, but what I learned, I kept. And remember well enough 50 years later....
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#29

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-07-2021, 10:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote: For the sake of argument, Epy, let's say that all of that is true.

I still don't see how that helps us going forward.

Not when stuff like this keeps coming out.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/r...ica-177680

Quote:1. How acute is the STEM education and talent deficit in the United States?  

The STEM shortage in the DIB is quickly approaching crisis status. As stated by Arthur Herman, “We are fast approaching another Sputnik moment, we can’t afford to ignore.” The United States must create a “state-of-the-art STEM education strategy” to cope with this reality. The report assesses if the United States fails to modernize and adjust it likely will face a “permanent national security deficit.” The United States should not be surprised by this development as prominent U.S. business and government leaders have long been sounding the alarm about the decay of the U.S. education system.

That report focuses on defense capabilities but what about industrial capabilities?  Do we cede that to China too because math and science is just too damned hard?

The situation in the UK is no better.

Quote:A university education for all.

Tony Blair: Prime minister.

Aye, that turned out well didn't it? Our universities are now infested with people who are not university material studying for degrees that are no good to neither man nor fucking beast.

Classics.
Modern languages.
Art.
History of art.
Economics.
Philosophy.
Business studies.
Sports science.
Events management.
Media studies.
Gender studies.

Not last but by all means least.

Theology!

An excellent rant here:
Linguists are feckless posers who don’t know the meaning of a real degree
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#30

Bill Maher on the College Scam
What's the equivalent in the UK, Ink?

[Image: phd.jpeg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#31

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-07-2021, 11:35 PM)Inkubus Wrote: Aye, that turned out well didn't it? Our universities are now infested with people who are not university material studying for degrees that are no good to neither man nor fucking beast.

Classics.
Modern languages.
Art.
History of art.
Economics.
Philosophy.
Business studies.
Sports science.
Events management.
Media studies.
Gender studies.

Not last but by all means least.

Theology!

An excellent rant here:
Linguists are feckless posers who don’t know the meaning of a real degree

Nothing better than a moron who knows less than nothing about any of those individual cursus to pass judgement upon them.

Of course the world doesn't need people producing art like movies, tv shows, music, design, fashion and many other things of the sort nor any people to criticize them. Of course the world doesn't managers and secretaries, bureaucrats. Of course the world doesn't need large scale events to celebrate, art, history, community or any form of mass entertainment. Of course the world doesn't trainers or athletes. Of course nobody needs social workers, international development. Of course the world doesn't need museums, libraries and patrimonial sites. Of course the world has no use to discuss religion. It's like anybody care about those silly things that are worth nothing. The only thing of worth is what you like, what you know and what you respect without thinking to hard about what's in the world you live it and what makes it interesting.
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#32

Bill Maher on the College Scam
Studying a language and studying linguistics are two rather different things. But I guess that feckless poser Noam Chomsky just got told by the great Charles White.

And if that was an attempt at social satire, Pulp got there ages before him. And they can actually write *and* sing Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Then there's also James Rebanks.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#33

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-07-2021, 11:47 PM)epronovost Wrote:
(06-07-2021, 11:35 PM)Inkubus Wrote: Aye, that turned out well didn't it? Our universities are now infested with people who are not university material studying for degrees that are no good to neither man nor fucking beast.

Classics.
Modern languages.
Art.
History of art.
Economics.
Philosophy.
Business studies.
Sports science.
Events management.
Media studies.
Gender studies.

Not last but by all means least.

Theology!

An excellent rant here:
Linguists are feckless posers who don’t know the meaning of a real degree

Nothing better than a moron who knows less than nothing about any of those individual cursus to pass judgement upon them.

Of course the world doesn't need people producing art like movies, tv shows, music, design, fashion and many other things of the sort nor any people to criticize them. Of course the world doesn't managers and secretaries, bureaucrats. Of course the world doesn't need large scale events to celebrate, art, history, community or any form of mass entertainment. Of course the world doesn't trainers or athletes. Of course nobody needs social workers, international development. Of course the world doesn't need museums, libraries and patrimonial sites. Of course the world has no use to discuss religion. It's like anybody care about those silly things that are worth nothing. The only thing of worth is what you like, what you know and what you respect without thinking to hard about what's in the world you live it and what makes it interesting.

How many of the above require a cripplingly expensive university education?
Quote:Art like movies, tv shows, music, fashion

TV shows???

May I ask; what's your degree in?
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#34

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 12:21 AM)Inkubus Wrote: TV shows???

Yeah, who would have known that a modern production even for TV requires people with college education. Producers hold a bachelor degrees as do a lot of people involved in post and pre production. An episode of Games of Thrones needs the work of dozens of college graduates in art and management.

Quote:May I ask; what's your degree in?

It's in education; may I ask in what is/are yours.
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#35

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-07-2021, 11:42 PM)Minimalist Wrote: What's the equivalent in the UK, Ink?

Loved that about philosophy.  I've read everything from Plato to 21st century philosophy and little of it seems to show any practical experience at life.  An online test (for what it is worth) said I was mostly 100% Kant and 75% Hume.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#36

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-07-2021, 11:42 PM)Minimalist Wrote: What's the equivalent in the UK, Ink?

[Image: phd.jpeg]

[Image: Philosophy_8d9147_5029913.jpg]
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#37

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 12:30 AM)epronovost Wrote: [quote="Inkubus" pid='302336' dateline='1623111713']
TV shows???

Yeah, who would have known that a modern production even for TV requires people with college education.

And there go the goalposts. A college education can be three months a university education is upwards of four years.

Quote:Producers hold a bachelor degrees

That's a bit of a broad generalization is it not? Do producers 'need' a bachelors degree to pump out sit-coms and quiz shows?

Quote:May I ask; what's your degree in?

Quote:It's in education; may I ask in what is/are yours.

Don't have one, didn't need one.
Over the years this moron made a great deal of money in refrigeration & air conditioning.
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#38

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 01:04 AM)Inkubus Wrote: That's a bit of a broad generalization is it not? Do producers 'need' a bachelors degree to pump out sit-coms and quiz shows?

Yep, they do, plus prior experience in the domain for lead producers. Production of TV shows have a bachelors degree as a minimal education (though some with long careers in the domain like former actors or people who transitioned from post-production jobs might have different level of education).  Some have more.

https://study.com/how_to_become_a_tv_producer.html

Sit-coms and quiz shows will also require a bunch of people with bachelor's degree in various other position from researchers, to production assistants, passing by people working visual effects and montage. Even your cameraman crew might be composed of people with bachelor's degree or bachelors degree too.

https://study.com/cameraman_career.html

A dumb sitcom might employ about a dozen person with bachelor's degree in various domain associated with arts and management to exist.
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#39

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 12:35 AM)Inkubus Wrote: [quote="Minimalist" pid='302331' dateline='1623109378']
What's the equivalent in the UK, Ink?

The sad life of philosophy majors; when to flip the burgers... Well, at least they have time to think "Great Thoughts".   I'm glad I learned a bit of everything.  Started my career.  The govt interviewer couldn't find anything I didn't know SOMETHING about.  So I got a general office job and went from there.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#40

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 01:33 AM)Cavebear Wrote: The sad life of philosophy majors; when to flip the burgers...

 
It seems that this is actually a pretty big and common prejudice. Students with philosophy majors have very little trouble finding employment and can be amongst the highest earning graduates after 10 years on the job market.
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#41

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 01:48 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:33 AM)Cavebear Wrote: The sad life of philosophy majors; when to flip the burgers...

 
It seems that this is actually a pretty big and common prejudice. Students with philosophy majors have very little trouble finding employment and can be amongst the highest earning graduates after 10 years on the job market.

Yeah. If you can think "deep thoughts" and express them, someone will hire you. But you have to actually be able to do something after that. I passed some on the way up. I did both.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#42

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 01:53 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Yeah.  If you can think "deep thoughts" and express them, someone will hire you.  But you have to actually be able to do something after that.  I passed some on the way up.  I did both.

Philosophy teaches critical thinking, epistemology and ontology. It can also be a surprisingly challenging and competitive discipline. A good cursus on philosophy makes for graduates that are excellent at parsing information, devising solutions to problem and adaptability. These are invaluable skills in complex jobs and since philosophy has roots in a lot of more practical domains like politics, economics and law as well as in fundamental science, it can be put to service easily.
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#43

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 02:13 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:53 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Yeah.  If you can think "deep thoughts" and express them, someone will hire you.  But you have to actually be able to do something after that.  I passed some on the way up.  I did both.

Philosophy teaches critical thinking, epistemology and ontology. It can also be a surprisingly challenging and competitive discipline. A good cursus on philosophy makes for graduates that are excellent at parsing information, devising solutions to problem and adaptability. These are invaluable skills in complex jobs and since philosophy has roots in a lot of more practical domains like politics, economics and law as well as in fundamental science, it can be put to service easily.

I am not degrading critical thinking so much as I laugh at philosophers in general for silly thoughts about human nature. I don't need proof I exist or think. Cogito Ergo Sum is just a fact.

That being said, I wouldn't have NOT hired someone just because they were a philosophy major. If you can write 10 pages of "nothing", you can probably write a few pages of "something". Being able to think about "anything" is demonstrable of thought.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#44

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 02:43 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 02:13 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:53 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Yeah.  If you can think "deep thoughts" and express them, someone will hire you.  But you have to actually be able to do something after that.  I passed some on the way up.  I did both.

Philosophy teaches critical thinking, epistemology and ontology. It can also be a surprisingly challenging and competitive discipline. A good cursus on philosophy makes for graduates that are excellent at parsing information, devising solutions to problem and adaptability. These are invaluable skills in complex jobs and since philosophy has roots in a lot of more practical domains like politics, economics and law as well as in fundamental science, it can be put to service easily.

I am not degrading critical thinking so much as I laugh at philosophers in general for silly thoughts about human nature.  I don't need proof I exist or think.  Cogito Ergo Sum is just a fact.

That being said, I wouldn't have NOT hired someone just because they were a philosophy major.  If you can write 10 pages of "nothing", you can probably write a few pages of "something".  Being able to think about "anything" is demonstrable of thought.

And yet it's the silly thoughts of philosophers that produced the political system you live in, the economical system you live in, your system of ethics and the most fundamental laws protecting you from harm... not to shabby wouldn't you say for some silly thoughts about human nature. Hell, they even produced the concept of "fact" to which you are referring to and the "logic" you use to support it.
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#45

Bill Maher on the College Scam
Quote:And yet it's the silly thoughts of philosophers that produced the political system you live in,


Is that supposed to be an endorsement, Epy?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#46

Bill Maher on the College Scam
I'm no big fan of philosophy, but done right it may certainly hone one's bullshit detector. For instance, the definitions of logical fallacies is almost certainly an adjunct of philosophy.

Fair notice: I only have Phi 101 on my transcript, but listening to my prof and fellow students -- and myself at many times -- ! sure got my BS detector up and running, eventually.

Christ, just learning to read philosophy got my English skills up a notch or two. That's some of the hardest reading I've ever done in my life.

The discipline has useful points. How one markets those skills is up in the air, but if the clerk at the cash register is a philosophy major, I can at least bet that the transaction will be more interesting.
On hiatus.
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#47

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 04:00 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:And yet it's the silly thoughts of philosophers that produced the political system you live in,


Is that supposed to be an endorsement, Epy?

Yeah, I rather like the concept of having the right to vote for my government instead of having it imposed upon me by military might like for most of human history.
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#48

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 01:48 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:33 AM)Cavebear Wrote: The sad life of philosophy majors; when to flip the burgers...

 
It seems that this is actually a pretty big and common prejudice. Students with philosophy majors have very little trouble finding employment and can be amongst the highest earning graduates after 10 years on the job market.

What percent of them are finding employment in the field of writing about, thinking about, and practicing philosophy?  I don't think anyone is arguing that a good liberal arts education isn't beneficial to a person in many ways (and to a society), but in the narrow aspect of "Will this lead me to financially be able to support myself and my family" surely the stereotype is correct? (not many job opportunities in the fields).  They may be finding employment but it's not as lucrative as careers in law and medicine and computer technology and business and engineering, etc.  Now you could argue that four years of philosophy prepares one for success after moving on to, say, law or business, but on its own financial merits what can you do with a philosophy degree?
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#49

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 02:55 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:48 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:33 AM)Cavebear Wrote: The sad life of philosophy majors; when to flip the burgers...

 
It seems that this is actually a pretty big and common prejudice. Students with philosophy majors have very little trouble finding employment and can be amongst the highest earning graduates after 10 years on the job market.

What percent of them are finding employment in the field of writing about, thinking about, and practicing philosophy?  I don't think anyone is arguing that a good liberal arts education isn't beneficial to a person in many ways (and to a society), but in the narrow aspect of "Will this lead me to financially be able to support myself and my family" surely the stereotype is correct? (not many job opportunities in the fields).  They may be finding employment but it's not as lucrative as careers in law and medicine and computer technology and business and engineering, etc.  Now you could argue that four years of philosophy prepares one for success after moving on to, say, law or business, but on its own financial merits what can you do with a philosophy degree?

Stereotype about being jobless after getting philosophy degree is just that, stereotype. At least in Poland:

[...]Professor Ryszard Cichocki from the Institute of Sociology at Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań admits that he himself was shocked when he summarized the research conducted by his team. In the discussion about higher education, philosophy is the poster boy for failure, as a science it is completely useless compared to, for example, engineering fields, and it turned out that unemployment rates for graduates of this major are minimal. This was not a random survey, but a precise analysis of data from Poznań employment offices over the last 12 years. The best results were achieved by the graduates of the Academy of Music (rate of registered as unemployed - 0 percent) and the Medical University (less than 1 percent). At the other end of the scale are the University of Life Sciences and the AWF.

As far as the Adam Mickiewicz University graduates are concerned, graduates of chemistry, history, Polish and classical philology, as well as the Faculty of Educational Sciences were least successful on the labour market. Graduates of the Institute of Philosophy and the Institute of Cultural Studies did best. Unemployment among philosophy graduates is now at the level of 1.3%. In the worst years, unemployment among those graduating from certain departments was even over a dozen percent. Over the past 12 years, unemployment among philosophy graduates has never exceeded 4 percent.[...]

Entire article [in Polish] can be found here - https://filozofia.uw.edu.pl/rekrutacja/p...nku-pracy/

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#50

Bill Maher on the College Scam
(06-08-2021, 03:02 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 02:55 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 01:48 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
It seems that this is actually a pretty big and common prejudice. Students with philosophy majors have very little trouble finding employment and can be amongst the highest earning graduates after 10 years on the job market.

What percent of them are finding employment in the field of writing about, thinking about, and practicing philosophy?  I don't think anyone is arguing that a good liberal arts education isn't beneficial to a person in many ways (and to a society), but in the narrow aspect of "Will this lead me to financially be able to support myself and my family" surely the stereotype is correct? (not many job opportunities in the fields).  They may be finding employment but it's not as lucrative as careers in law and medicine and computer technology and business and engineering, etc.  Now you could argue that four years of philosophy prepares one for success after moving on to, say, law or business, but on its own financial merits what can you do with a philosophy degree?

Stereotype about being jobless after getting philosophy degree is just that, stereotype. At least in Poland:

[...]Professor Ryszard Cichocki from the Institute of Sociology at Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań admits that he himself was shocked when he summarized the research conducted by his team. In the discussion about higher education, philosophy is the poster boy for failure, as a science it is completely useless compared to, for example, engineering fields, and it turned out that unemployment rates for graduates of this major are minimal. This was not a random survey, but a precise analysis of data from Poznań employment offices over the last 12 years. The best results were achieved by the graduates of the Academy of Music (rate of registered as unemployed - 0 percent) and the Medical University (less than 1 percent). At the other end of the scale are the University of Life Sciences and the AWF.

As far as the Adam Mickiewicz University graduates are concerned, graduates of chemistry, history, Polish and classical philology, as well as the Faculty of Educational Sciences were least successful on the labour market. Graduates of the Institute of Philosophy and the Institute of Cultural Studies did best. Unemployment among philosophy graduates is now at the level of 1.3%. In the worst years, unemployment among those graduating from certain departments was even over a dozen percent. Over the past 12 years, unemployment among philosophy graduates has never exceeded 4 percent.[...]

Entire article [in Polish] can be found here - https://filozofia.uw.edu.pl/rekrutacja/p...nku-pracy/

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

I agree the stereotype of the late-20s aged philosophy grad who is jobless and lives with mom and dad while contemplating his navel, that's a stereotype.  I'm curious about the type of jobs they're getting, does their employment have anything to do with their four years of studying philosophy.  The stereotype of the philosophy grad waiting tables or working at Starbucks or other basic working class jobs, that stereotype has a bit of a ring of truth.  And I don't mean it to disparage a person, it's more a reflection of the economy not providing meaningful and lucrative jobs for as many people as a generation ago, but in that context a career-specific degree probably beats a narrow liberal arts degree.
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