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Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
#26

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-02-2021, 11:40 PM)Dom Wrote:
(03-02-2021, 07:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(03-01-2021, 09:01 PM)Vera Wrote: I just learnt the other day about sadfishing: "a term used to describe a behavioural trend where people make exaggerated claims about their emotional problems to generate sympathy, The name is a play on "catfishing." Sadfishing is a common reaction for someone going through a hard time, or pretending to be going through a hard time."

And no, being sad because you broke up with boyfriend doesn't mean you're depressed. Just like having moods that - imagine this! - change, doesn't mean you have bipolar disorder or if you wash your hands a lot and like to keep a tidy house, you have OCD.

I guess I had an unrelated minirant of my own, eh  Angel

Re "sadfishing" ... it gets worse.
In the hospital and the ER, Munchausen's Syndrome is a pretty common *thing*.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/munchausen-syndrome

And that is a horrible thing.

Yabut, truly horrific is Munchausen by proxy.

Quote:Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSBP) is a mental health problem in which a caregiver makes up or causes an illness or injury in a person under his or her care, such as a child, an elderly adult, or a person who has a disability. Because vulnerable people are the victims, MSBP is a form of child abuse or elder abuse.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#27

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
Yeah, I was going to say that the truly horrible one is the one by proxy. Though nowadays it's called factitious disorder imposed on self/on another, as I found out when I was dia... I mean, never you mind how I found out Whistling

(The way English speakers often butcher the name Munchausen drives me up a wall... hobo )
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#28

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-03-2021, 01:48 PM)Vera Wrote: Yeah, I was going to say that the truly horrible one is the one by proxy. Though nowadays it's called factitious disorder imposed on self/on another, as I found out when I was dia... I mean, never you mind how I found out  Whistling

(The way English speakers often butcher the name Munchausen drives me up a wall... hobo )

What languages do you speak?  English, obviously, but what other languages do you have up your sleeve?  I admire people who speak several languages. 

How difficult do you think it is for a grown adult to learn another language?   I've thought about learning another language. I took a little French in high school.....emphasis on the word "little",  but I've thought about going back and taking some more French.   Do you have any recommendations for someone like me?  What do you think of some of the programs like Babbel or Rosetta Stone?
                                                         T4618
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#29

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-03-2021, 05:15 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(03-03-2021, 01:48 PM)Vera Wrote: Yeah, I was going to say that the truly horrible one is the one by proxy. Though nowadays it's called factitious disorder imposed on self/on another, as I found out when I was dia... I mean, never you mind how I found out  Whistling

(The way English speakers often butcher the name Munchausen drives me up a wall... hobo )

What languages do you speak?  English, obviously, but what other languages do you have up your sleeve?  I admire people who speak several languages. 

How difficult do you think it is for a grown adult to learn another language?   I've thought about learning another language. I took a little French in high school.....emphasis on the word "little",  but I've thought about going back and taking some more French.   Do you have any recommendations for someone like me?  What do you think of some of the programs like Babbel or Rosetta Stone?
I had two years of high school French and was told I was quite good at it, particularly the accent, but my school was too small to get at least the required five students together to offer French III. I was quite disappointed about that, and have thought off and on about getting back to it on my own, particularly given our thoughts about possibly immigrating to Canada. What does me in is always the tyranny of the urgent.

I, too, would be interested in Vera's thoughts on this.
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#30

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-03-2021, 05:15 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: What languages do you speak?  English, obviously, but what other languages do you have up your sleeve?  I admire people who speak several languages. 

Well… English, Bulgarian and Portuguese are the ones I can have a complex (well, depending on the other person really  Tongue ) conversation in… Russian I can read, listen to and watch stuff in rather comfortably, but speaking is… somewhat of an uphill battle, seeing as I haven’t really spoken it since I took Russian in 3rd and 4th grade (ages ago) (minus the occasional Russian I’d have to speak with at my first job, some 15 years ago. I guess a couple of months somewhere in Russia would take care of this (if only they didn’t have them nasty cases… or if only Bulgarian wasn’t only Slavic language without a case system).

Spanish… well, my Portuguese being much better and me having lived in Brazil (and Portugal) for much longer than in Argentina and Uruguay, my Spanish is rather iffy, speaking-wise, I tend to kinda revert to Portuguese after the first couple of words. (When I was living in Argentina and Uruguay, I would revert to Spanish when trying to speak Portuguese.)

My French is probably as good as yours – typical high-school level (and I really did not want to learn French so didn't make much of an effort)… speaking another Romance language helps a lot with understanding (though I understand Italian much better than French as it is more similar to Portuguese).

Serbian is close enough to Bulgarian to be mutually understandable to a certain degree but that’s just for funsies because Serbian sounds *hilarious* (which I shouldn’t be saying probably but it really does  Big Grin )

I was totally planning on learning some Vietnamese before I go to Vietnam (if I ever do Dodgy )… but that hope died an instantaneous death when I found it it’s a tonal language. Difficult grammar I can cope with… a tonal language is so far above my paygrade that I won’t even try (I mean, I gave up after my first class of Swedish when I was doing my MA in Sweden and they tried to teach me about a dozen vowels that all sounded the same  hobo )


Quote:How difficult do you think it is for a grown adult to learn another language?   I've thought about learning another language. I took a little French in high school.....emphasis on the word "little",  but I've thought about going back and taking some more French.   Do you have any recommendations for someone like me?  What do you think of some of the programs like Babbel or Rosetta Stone?

Learning another language… well, I’m rather conservative on this topic. I only have experience with Duolingo so can’t comment on other apps and programs but no, I do not believe one can master a foreign language this way. You may end up memorising some basic phrases but, and that may be an unpopular opinion, you cannot really master a language if you have no idea how it works. Obviously, this does NOT apply to small children who learn stuff in a thoroughly different way. Also, if you have a knack for languages *and* have been living abroad for a while you *may* pick it up without any formal knowledge of grammar and the internal workings of the language (then again, I’ve known more than one person who struggle with the language of the country they’ve been living in for sometimes decades. So picking it up just by living there is certainly not a… well, certainty  Tongue )

All in all, learning a new language (much like any other skill, really) requires time and effort. Taking classes (even better – taking classes *in* the country where the language is spoken) is how I’ve always done it… I think it’s important to be immersed in a language (even if just in the classroom) and to have someone explain things to you, someone you can *ask* about things, not try to guess on your own or with an app. But that’s just me…




Of course, you don't actually have to become fluent or even advanced in a language, you can just have fun with it and that, you can do any way you like, apps, online games, online course - whatever you like

Also, once you reach a certain level, the effort of learning a new language becomes really fun - you learn simply by reading stuff and watching stuff, and talking to be people.


Wow, I kinda overdid it, didn't I Blush

[Image: crying040.gif]
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#31

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-04-2021, 12:35 PM)mordant Wrote:
(03-03-2021, 05:15 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(03-03-2021, 01:48 PM)Vera Wrote: Yeah, I was going to say that the truly horrible one is the one by proxy. Though nowadays it's called factitious disorder imposed on self/on another, as I found out when I was dia... I mean, never you mind how I found out  Whistling

(The way English speakers often butcher the name Munchausen drives me up a wall... hobo )

What languages do you speak?  English, obviously, but what other languages do you have up your sleeve?  I admire people who speak several languages. 

How difficult do you think it is for a grown adult to learn another language?   I've thought about learning another language. I took a little French in high school.....emphasis on the word "little",  but I've thought about going back and taking some more French.   Do you have any recommendations for someone like me?  What do you think of some of the programs like Babbel or Rosetta Stone?
I had two years of high school French and was told I was quite good at it, particularly the accent, but my school was too small to get at least the required five students together to offer French III. I was quite disappointed about that, and have thought off and on about getting back to it on my own, particularly given our thoughts about possibly immigrating to Canada. What does me in is always the tyranny of the urgent.

I, too, would be interested in Vera's thoughts on this.

All the courses you can do on your computer are reasonably good. What's missing is someone correcting your pronunciation, you won't be able to hear the fine points without some guidance. Once you have some basics, heading to youtube and watching kids programs and news in your pick of language will help make you more fluent, they use words you will recognize easily and improve fluency a lot. Do it for short periods of time and often. Same goes for studying. Your brain needs time to process that sort of input. Frequent, short sessions make things a lot easier.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#32

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
Check your library. I know some around here offer use of things like Rosetta Stone and such. I've used Rosetta Stone, Pimsleurs, and Babbel, but mostly Pimsleurs. I could see where Rosetta Stone has potential, but I never got into it. Pimsleurs and Babbel likely only confirms Vera's critique. After a couple of years of studying Chinese and Japanese, I came to the conclusion that if I wanted to make real progress, college classes were a must. Watching foreign language media and films is valuable, too. I know people who swear they learned their Japanese solely by watching anime. (Oh, and another valuable resource is that there are services for matching language students with their opposite who is trying to learn your language. Not only is live practice incredibly productive, you can check yourself with a native speaker of the language that you're learning. And don't overlook societies geared toward improving cultural understanding. They often offer a lot of valuable opportunities for learning about the language and culture.)
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#33

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
One can readily get a basic level of competence in several languages by following the guidance below. Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Minimum level:
  • Being able to ask where the toilet is. (and usually understanding the answer)
  • Being able to order coffee, tea, and/or alcohol
  • Ask where 'x' is, and how to get there
  • Easily say "Nu vorbesc bine limba română" or its equivalent, e.g. "Je ne parle pas bien le français."
Intermediate level:
  • Understand directions to 'x'
  • Ability to order dinner and get something like what you think you ordered
  • Being able to ask where your consulate is, e.g. "Unde este consulatul SUA?" or "Où est le consulat américain?"
Advanced level:
  • Having some vocabulary and a rudimentary grasp of grammar
  • Having a non-hilarious accent
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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#34

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-04-2021, 07:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: And don't overlook societies geared toward improving cultural understanding.  They often offer a lot of valuable opportunities for learning about the language and culture.
Locally here we have a meet up where people get together (or used to!) for dinner and only French is spoken. They are a mix of experienced / native speakers and learners. I tried it a couple of times but found it a bit too much for my level of command of French, but if I were a bit further along it'd be invaluable.
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#35

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
Well, now I've seen it all. I've been listening to audio dramas while I bike these days (it's a real hit and miss thing, some are really good and some are equal parts pedestrian and pretentious).

Anyway, the one I'm listening to right now (apparently it originated as fictional story told on reddit, haha, but has been received positively by critics apparently), there's someone bitching about the choice of actors. ON A PODCAST. Where you don't see the freaking actors! OK, there may be an identifiable accent at times (then again, how *do* you do an "indian" accent without being, well, offensive. And if no one can tell the actress is indian, black or lilac... what difference does it make?!)

"In the original story, Alice is explicitly stated to be British Indian and her parents are implied to be first-generation immigrants. Although her racial identity was never a direct plot point, some readers read into its relation to the story’s resolution. Others simply related to her.

Instead of seeking out a British Indian actress to play Alice, casting directors Chelsea Ellis Bloch and Marisol Roncali cast Tessa Thompson, a Black American actress, and the character was subsequently rewritten to be half unspecified American, half British Caribbean to better fit Thompson’s background. This conflation of identities may seem harmless at first, considering both Black and Asian women are underrepresented and reduced to stereotypes in traditional media, but there’s an unmistakable ‘diversity checkbox’ feel. It brings an implication that all people of color experience the world in the same way, suggests that they’re interchangeable, and ignores the long histories that define them.

At best, the casting of Thompson is a play to bring onboard star attention and support. At worst, it characterizes all people of color as a monolith, perpetuating a harmful misconception that here affects the Black, Indian, and Black and Indian communities, and takes away one more opportunity for an Indian voice actor to break out into the scene. More Black and Brown women leading productions is a desirable — and important — goal, but people of color shouldn’t have to compete for designated “non-white” roles. Studios should make an effort to consider these identities individually and treat characters with the necessary care."


Do these people honestly think they're helping the cause they're shouting at the top of their lungs that they're espousing? Or do they want to beat their chests about how much more progressive than us, unenlightened yokels they are, never mind the HARM they're causing to exactly what they want to promote. hobo

(On that note, in the all the audio dramas I've listened/tried to listen to, by various writers and companies, there have been all of.. one - O.N.E straight couples so far. ONE. Talk about checkboxes.)
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#36

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
Amanda Gorman's Catalan translator dropped because of 'profile'

"A translator from Spain says his version of a poem read at US President Joe Biden's inauguration was rejected because he had the wrong "profile".

Víctor Obiols was commissioned to work on the Catalan translation of Amanda Gorman's The Hill We Climb last month.

But after he completed the project, the publishers said they wanted a translator who was "a woman, young, activist and preferably black".

Víctor Obiols, whose previous work includes translations of Shakespeare and Oscar Wilde, was asked to translate Gorman's poem and a foreword by Oprah Winfrey (Facepalm )into Catalan several weeks ago.

But the editor of Barcelona publisher Univers told Spain's Efe news agency on Wednesday that after the translation was complete, the company received a request from the US group Viking Books for the work to be carried out by a female activist with African-American origins, if possible.

"They did not question my abilities," Víctor Obiols told the AFP news agency, noting that the publisher had promised to pay him for his work.

"But if I cannot translate a poet because she is a woman, young, black, an American of the 21st Century, neither can I translate Homer because I am not a Greek of the eighth century BC. Or could not have translated Shakespeare because I am not a 16th-Century Englishman,"
he added.

I guess the only solution is for her to learn about fifty or so languages so that everyone can read her exalte, unique, transcendental work. Deadpan Coffee Drinker


Yes, I said it - I think her work, such as it is, is pedestrian and overrated and the fawning over her uncomfortably sycophantic.

I get it that the whole inauguration is one big-ass spectacle and I realise US presidents seem to be regarded more as celebrities (and as such, idealised and worshipped in a way that makes many non-American cringe) and politics - as a show, but this year's pomp and circumstance and the surrounding furore went way, way beyond cringe-worthy.

But of course, nowadays artistic merit takes not the back seat but another car (as a hitchhiker!) to the agenda du jour.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#37

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
Your story just hit the Washington Post today.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/202...tor-spain/  





Quote:It is a very complicated subject that cannot be treated with frivolity,” he continued. “But if I cannot translate a poet because she is a woman, young, Black, an American of the 21st century, neither can I translate Homer because I am not a Greek of the eighth century BC. Or could not have translated Shakespeare because I am not a 16th-century Englishman.


ETA: Oops. Sorry, you already made this quote a part of your post but it's such a true statement. What the hell does it matter what color the translator has.

I
                                                         T4618
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#38

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-11-2021, 09:15 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Your story just hit the Washington Post today.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/202...tor-spain/  

ETA: Oops.  Sorry, you already made this quote a part of your post but it's such a true statement.  What the hell does it matter what color the translator has.  

Indeed, as someone who thinks art is one of the few redeeming things about humanity, I find this sickening and sad.

Not surprising, mind you, art and propaganda, people' agendas, what have you, have always gone hand in hand, but it still makes me sad.

Most things about people make me sad these days...

Luckily, there is nature...


... for now.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#39

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-07-2021, 02:35 AM)mordant Wrote:
(03-04-2021, 07:18 PM)Dānu Wrote: And don't overlook societies geared toward improving cultural understanding.  They often offer a lot of valuable opportunities for learning about the language and culture.
Locally here we have a meet up where people get together (or used to!) for dinner and only French is spoken. They are a mix of experienced / native speakers and learners. I tried it a couple of times but found it a bit too much for my level of command of French, but if I were a bit further along it'd be invaluable.

Speaking solely from my experience as a musician, I find that I learn more when I'm playing with masters. It's uncomfortable being the weak link, but the struggle to keep up is an excellent goad to learning, I believe. I say go for it.
On hiatus.
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#40

Amanda Gorman's white translator quits
(03-11-2021, 10:08 PM)Vera Wrote: Indeed, as someone who thinks art is one of the few redeeming things about humanity, I find this sickening and sad.

Indeed. If the arts are the common language, then who is anyone to cut someone else out because they're not the right color or culture? If white musicians can't play the blues, can Zulus not play classical music? What if Australasian aboriginals want to paint using Impressionist style? I wasn't alive in the 30s -- should I be forbidden to write a period-piece?

The arts are the one arena where we humans actively work to take down barriers. I really dislike anyone trying to insert barriers into it. Art does, and should, join us together, not divide us further.
On hiatus.
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