Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
History is a Lie Agreed Upon
#1

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
Seems like the Japanese are trying to prove Napoleon correct yet again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/world...ikaze.html


Quote:He Escaped Death as a Kamikaze Pilot. 70 Years Later, He Told His Story.

Kazuo Odachi is one of the last living members of a group never meant to survive. He wants to remind Japan that before its modern success came the sacrifices of the young pilots who gave their lives.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 4 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • Phaedrus, abaris, Bucky Ball, skyking
Reply
#2

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
HISTORYn. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.

Ambrose Bierce
The following 2 users Like no one's post:
  • Bucky Ball, Cavebear
Reply
#3

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
That's History 101. Try the 600 level stuff.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
Reply
#4

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
Interesting to see that it's not just Americans who need reminders about where they have been.
On hiatus.
Reply
#5

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-03-2020, 01:18 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: That's History 101. Try the 600 level stuff.


Most 'Murricans never take History 1 - let alone 101.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • Phaedrus
Reply
#6

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
I have a Masters in History. I spent 25 years working with the US Naval History and Heritage Command.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
The following 1 user Likes Gawdzilla Sama's post:
  • Phaedrus
Reply
#7

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
Most 'Murricans think "jesus" handed the constitution to the Founding Fathers.

Be happy you aren't one of them.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#8

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
"History" will always depend on who's writing it.
Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
The following 1 user Likes outtathereligioncloset's post:
  • jerry mcmasters
Reply
#9

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
The masters and doctoral thesis is supposed to be focused. We have 22 terabytes of primary source information on Hyperwar. The Naval History and Heritage Command have vastly more. When you're looking at a specific issue you have to choose what should be included and what can be left for other studies. I pared a 300 thesis down to fifty pages by being rather merciless. I still managed to work in that the last forty years of the Africa-US slave trade was financed by Northern financial interests and why the South didn't want more slaves imported.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
The following 1 user Likes Gawdzilla Sama's post:
  • abaris
Reply
#10

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
I had the benefit of a good His102 prof who was happy to poke holes in accepted "wisdom".
On hiatus.
The following 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • abaris
Reply
#11

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-03-2020, 11:06 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote: "History" will always depend on who's writing it.


And what sources they use.... and why.

And perhaps more important, what sources they ignore!


This is always a big problem with religious types.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#12

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
I have never met a historian who wasn't trying to make a point. The way the point is made is perhaps more important than the point itself.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
Reply
#13

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-03-2020, 11:06 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote: "History" will always depend on who's writing it.

And on who's listening.

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
Reply
#14

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 01:12 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I have never met a historian who wasn't trying to make a point. The way the point is made is perhaps more important than the point itself.

Agreed.  Which is why all history must be read critically.

In ancient writing there is a hypothesis that when a writer discusses an earlier period his commentary is really about the time in which he lives.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#15

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-03-2020, 06:14 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Seems like the Japanese are trying to prove Napoleon correct yet again.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/world...ikaze.html


Quote:He Escaped Death as a Kamikaze Pilot. 70 Years Later, He Told His Story.

Kazuo Odachi is one of the last living members of a group never meant to survive. He wants to remind Japan that before its modern success came the sacrifices of the young pilots who gave their lives.

What is the Napoleon reference?

And isn't modern Japan's success based on Japan losing the war?  I guess a kamikaze pilot surviving contributes to Japan losing, so...he's a hero...? Kinda?
Reply
#16

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 12:34 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 11:06 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote: "History" will always depend on who's writing it.


And what sources they use.... and why.

And perhaps more important, what sources they ignore!


This is always a big problem with religious types.

Cherry-picking doesn't just happen in religious discussions.
On hiatus.
Reply
#17

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
I just continue to read a lot. New ways of looking at the world abound.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
The following 1 user Likes Chas's post:
  • Phaedrus
Reply
#18

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
[Image: napoleonbonaparte1-2x.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • Phaedrus
Reply
#19

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 12:07 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The masters and doctoral thesis is supposed to be focused. We have 22 terabytes of primary source information on Hyperwar. The Naval History and Heritage Command have vastly more. When you're looking at a specific issue you have to choose what should be included and what can be left for other studies. I pared a 300 thesis down to fifty pages by being rather merciless. I still managed to work in that the last forty years of the Africa-US slave trade was financed by Northern financial interests and why the South didn't want more slaves imported.

What would the 'cousins' make of this?
Reply
#20

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 12:34 AM)Minimalist Wrote: And what sources they use.... and why.

And perhaps more important, what sources they ignore!


This is always a big problem with religious types.

For me, one lesson on sources was most memorable. I was in my first semester and one of the tasks was to correctly name the time, authorship and regionality of a pararagraph you were presented with. You got no hints other than the actual text to identify it. In my case it was something from the old GDR. But what it tought me was to always be critical on your sources. Just because it's written, it hasn't to be true and there's almost always a hidden agenda behind the source.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
The following 2 users Like abaris's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus, Minimalist
Reply
#21

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 05:31 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 12:07 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The masters and doctoral thesis is supposed to be focused. We have 22 terabytes of primary source information on Hyperwar. The Naval History and Heritage Command have vastly more. When you're looking at a specific issue you have to choose what should be included and what can be left for other studies. I pared a 300 thesis down to fifty pages by being rather merciless. I still managed to work in that the last forty years of the Africa-US slave trade was financed by Northern financial interests and why the South didn't want more slaves imported.

What would the 'cousins' make of this?

Which part?
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
Reply
#22

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 10:02 AM)abaris Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 12:34 AM)Minimalist Wrote: And what sources they use.... and why.

And perhaps more important, what sources they ignore!


This is always a big problem with religious types.

For me, one lesson on sources was most memorable. I was in my first semester and one of the tasks was to correctly name the time, authorship and regionality of a pararagraph you were presented with. You got no hints other than the actual text to identify it. In my case it was something from the old GDR. But what it tought me was to always be critical on your sources. Just because it's written, it hasn't to be true and there's almost always a hidden agenda behind the source.

Historiography classes are important to writing history accurately.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
The following 1 user Likes Gawdzilla Sama's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus
Reply
#23

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 12:59 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 10:02 AM)abaris Wrote:
(12-04-2020, 12:34 AM)Minimalist Wrote: And what sources they use.... and why.

And perhaps more important, what sources they ignore!


This is always a big problem with religious types.

For me, one lesson on sources was most memorable. I was in my first semester and one of the tasks was to correctly name the time, authorship and regionality of a pararagraph you were presented with. You got no hints other than the actual text to identify it. In my case it was something from the old GDR. But what it tought me was to always be critical on your sources. Just because it's written, it hasn't to be true and there's almost always a hidden agenda behind the source.

Historiography classes are important to writing history accurately.

I really don't have too much to say about history being a "lie agreed upon" but I will say that when we look back at history it's difficult to not see the past through the veil of our modern eyes.  We are, all of us, people of our own time.  We can't be otherwise.  One day I was pondering how different Mozart or Shakespeare's work would have been if they had been born today.  Mozart's might be a rock star and who knows what Shakespeare would do today, or they both could have amounted to nothing.  Their talents possibly flourished because it fit so perfectly into the times they lived. 

OK, don't mind me,  I'm just blathering on about nothing in particular.      Whistling
                                                         T4618
The following 1 user Likes Dancefortwo's post:
  • adey67
Reply
#24

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
"What was 'good' for your grandfather is a 'horror' for you." That's why each generation of historians have to frame events in the mores of the current time.
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
The following 2 users Like Gawdzilla Sama's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus, Dancefortwo
Reply
#25

History is a Lie Agreed Upon
(12-04-2020, 11:40 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: "What was 'good' for your grandfather is a 'horror' for you." That's why each generation of historians have to frame events in the mores of the current time.

It's important to put both historical events and historical studies into context --- and not confusing the different contexts.
On hiatus.
The following 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • Dancefortwo
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)