The Burning of Witches

[TheSkeptic]

Just an example as to why I no longer believe in religion. 

          Exodus 22:18 “Thou shall not suffer a witch to live”. 

The literal belief in this notorious Biblical verse spawned one of the bloodiest periods of European history and influenced the publication of The Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches). First published in 1486, it is arguably one of the most infamous books ever written, due primarily to its position and regard during the Middle Ages. It served as a guidebook for Inquisitors during the Inquisition, and was designed to aid them in the identification, prosecution, and dispatching of Witches. It set forth, as well, many of the modern misconceptions and fears concerning witches and the influence of witchcraft. The questions, definitions, and accusations it set forth in regard to witches, which were reinforced by its use during the Inquisition, came to be widely regarded as irrefutable truth. Those beliefs are held even today by many Christians regarding practitioners of the modern “revived” religion of Witchcraft, or Wicca. And while the Malleus itself is largely unknown in modern times, its effects have proved long lasting. There were those who, at the time, doubted the existence of witches and largely regarded such belief as mere superstition. However, the authors of the Malleus addressed those voices in no uncertain terms, stating:

“Whether the Belief that there are such Beings as Witches is so Essential a Part of the Catholic Faith that Obstinacy to maintain the Opposite Opinion manifestly savors of Heresy.”

The immediate, and lasting, popularity of the Malleus essentially silenced those voices. It made very real the threat of one being branded a heretic, simply by virtue of one's questioning of the existence of witches and, thus, the validity of the Inquisition. It set into the general Christian consciousness, for all time, a belief in the existence of witches as a real and valid threat to the Christian world. It is a belief which is held to this day. It must be noted that during the Inquisition, few, if any, real, verifiable, witches were ever discovered or tried. Often the very accusation was enough to see one branded a witch, tried by the Inquisitors' Court, and burned alive at the stake. Estimates of the death toll during the Inquisition worldwide range from 600,000 to as high as 9,000,000 (over its 250 year long course); either is a chilling number when one realizes that nearly all of the accused were women, and consisted primarily of outcasts and other suspicious persons. Old women. Midwives. Jews. Poets. Gypsies.

Anyone who did not fit within the contemporary view of pious Christians were suspect, and easily branded "Witch". Usually to devastating effect.  It must also be noted that the crime of Witchcraft was not the only crime of which one could be accused during the Inquisition. By questioning any part of Catholic belief, one could be branded a heretic. Scientists were branded heretics by virtue of repudiating certain tenets of Christian belief (most notably Galileo, whose theories on the nature of planets and gravitational fields was initially branded heretical). Writers who challenged the Church were arrested for heresy (sometimes formerly accepted writers whose works had become unpopular). Anyone who questioned the validity of any part of Catholic belief did so at their own risk. The Malleus Maleficarum played an important role in bringing such Canonical law into being, as often the charge of heresy carried along with it suspicions of witchcraft.       

Science had only just begun to make any real advances. At that time nearly any unexplainable illness or malady would often be attributed to magic, and thus the activity of witches. It was a way for ordinary people to make sense of the world around them. The Malleus drew upon those beliefs, and, by its very existence, reinforced them and brought them into the codified belief system of the Catholic Church. In many ways, it could be said that it helped to validate the Inquisition itself.  While the Malleus itself cannot be blamed for the Inquisition or the horrors inflicted upon mankind by the Inquisitors, it certainly played an important role. Thus has it been said that The Malleus Maleficarum is one of the most blood-soaked works in human history, in that its very existence reinforced and validated Catholic beliefs which led to the prosecution, torture, and murder, of tens of thousands of innocent people (most of whom were women). The lasting effect of the Malleus upon the world can only be measured in the lives of the hundreds of thousands of men, women, and even children, who suffered, and died, at the hands of the Inquisitors during the Inquisition. At the height of its popularity, The Malleus Maleficarum was surpassed in public notoriety only by The Bible. Its effects were even felt in the New World, where the last gasp of the Inquisition was felt in the English settlements in America (most notably in Salem, Massachusetts during the Salem Witch Trials).

Today, the topic of ‘witches’ and ‘witchcraft’ has been regulated to a popular genre of children’s books (aka Harry Potter), a far cry from the importance it was given by Pope Innocent VIII. It is beyond the scope of this post to adequately examine the role of the Malleus in world history, or its lasting effects. At the very least, The Malleus Maleficarum offers to us an intriguing glimpse into the Medieval mind, and the ensuing madness that can result in the literal interpretation of religious and superstitious beliefs.

What are your thoughts?
 

[Minimalist]

Ignorance is the close companion of religion.  Always has been - always will be.  The revel in it and worse in their need to feel special.

As H. L. Mencken said:



Welcome, btw.

[Fireball]

Welcome! Wall of text aside...

[brewerb]

Copy/paste is usually frowned upon. So is not citing the source. This appears to come from the book "Evaluating the Circumstances".

[Thumpalumpacus]

Copy/pasta aside, I seem to remember Carl Sagan asserting around 750,000 women were killed in the course of a couple of centuries as witches. I don't know how accurate that is.

As for using odious policy to reinforce their influence in society, yeah, the RCC has a long history of fuckery.

So to speak ... of course.

[Minimalist]

There is not much of a consensus on the numbers.  I've seen ranges from 12,000 to 75,000 but ( big but, here) even the proponents of those numbers will note that they are incomplete because records are incomplete but also there would have been many local situations which never rose to the level of a witch hunt.  Just a means of getting even with a neighbor you didn't like or some other such foolishness.  Also, while some effort was made to keep track of these things in the west by the church ( they were proud of the number of witches they killed ) the various protestant sects in Germany were less diligent and then there is the whole of Eastern Europe which almost no one even bothers to think about.

Let's just leave it at "far too many."

[Thumpalumpacus]

There is not much of a consensus on the numbers.  I've seen ranges from 12,000 to 75,000 but ( big but, here) even the proponents of those numbers will note that they are incomplete because records are incomplete but also there would have been many local situations which never rose to the level of a witch hunt.  Just a means of getting even with a neighbor you didn't like or some other such foolishness.  Also, while some effort was made to keep track of these things in the west by the church ( they were proud of the number of witches they killed ) the various protestant sects in Germany were less diligent and then there is the whole of Eastern Europe which almost no one even bothers to think about.

Let's just leave it at "far too many."

I could be misremembering. And yeah, I bet lots of grudges were settled this way.

[Cavebear]

Wow, that seemed like a pretty harsh response to a new member, and I'm not noted for extreme tolerance. Am I missing something here?

[abaris]

Copy/pasta aside, I seem to remember Carl Sagan asserting around 750,000 women were killed in the course of a couple of centuries as witches. I don't know how accurate that is.

Highly exaggerated. Between 40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries, according to contemporary estimates, based on court protocols and reports.

[Chimp3]

Welcome!

[Thumpalumpacus]

Copy/pasta aside, I seem to remember Carl Sagan asserting around 750,000 women were killed in the course of a couple of centuries as witches. I don't know how accurate that is.

Highly exaggerated. Between 40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries, according to contemporary estimates, based on court protocols and reports.

Like I said, I could be misremembering; it was 20 years ago I read that. A faulty memory may well have appended a zero onto the figure.

[brewerb]

This makes me have Holy Grail head.

[Cavebear]

Copy/pasta aside, I seem to remember Carl Sagan asserting around 750,000 women were killed in the course of a couple of centuries as witches. I don't know how accurate that is.

Highly exaggerated. Between 40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries, according to contemporary estimates, based on court protocols and reports.

As if 60,000 wasn't enough for the superstitious idiotiotically crazed theists? Who still exist today but are only stopped by force of law?

[abaris]

Like I said, I could be misremembering; it was 20 years ago I read that. A faulty memory may well have appended a zero onto the figure.

Sagan dabbled in history but was never good at it. His figures always were vastly exaggerated or downright wrong. He was an astronomer after all.

[Cavebear]

Like I said, I could be misremembering; it was 20 years ago I read that. A faulty memory may well have appended a zero onto the figure.

Sagan dabbled in history but was never good at it. His figures always were vastly exaggerated or downright wrong. He was an astronomer after all.

I accepted your own claim of 60,000 for the sake of discussion. You can't escape that.

[Minimalist]

Copy/pasta aside, I seem to remember Carl Sagan asserting around 750,000 women were killed in the course of a couple of centuries as witches. I don't know how accurate that is.

Highly exaggerated. Between 40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries, according to contemporary estimates, based on court protocols and reports.

As if 60,000 wasn't enough for the superstitious idiotiotically crazed theists?  Who still exist today but are only stopped by force of law?

In some places, they are.

https://www.africanews.com/2017/08/01/ta...7-report//

Tanzania 'witch killings' claimed 479 lives from January - June 2017: report

In other places, not so much.

[abaris]

I accepted your own claim of 60,000 for the sake of discussion.  You can't escape that.

But as opposed to Sagan, I actually have a degree in history. Which doesn't mean I know everything from the top of my head. But I know where to look. If I were to dabble in Sagan's field, I would come up just as bad, if not worse.

[Cavebear]

I accepted your own claim of 60,000 for the sake of discussion.  You can't escape that.

But as opposed to Sagan, I actually have a degree in history. Which doesn't mean I know everything from the top of my head. But I know where to look. If I were to dabble in Sagan's field, I would come up just as bad, if not worse.

That evaded my objection. You said 60,000 and I accepted that for "purposes of discussion". You are now questioning your own numbers?

[abaris]

You are now questioning your own numbers?

How so?

[Cavebear]

You are now questioning your own numbers?

How so?

"You said "40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries" I did assume that the period meant "." " ," to me. Was I incorrect?

[abaris]

"You said "40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries"  I did assume that the period meant "." " ," to me.  Was I incorrect?

From roughly 1400 to roughly 1700. Which is when the last "witch" was executed in Europe. The last woman was being executed on German soil in 1781.

[Bucky Ball]

My thoughts are that the burning of witches (the "outsiders") was not limited to the Middle Ages.

I present to you a series of events that occurred in what is now, one of the United States of America.

The Governor of the state in question became involved.
A court was established.
Witnesses were carefully examined and cross-examined, by the best experts of the day.
Evidence was gathered.
Many people confessed in public to the officials of the court.
The entire proceeding was documented with thousands of sworn affidavits, court documents, interviews and related proceedings.
Sufficient evidence was established by intelligent men and women of good faith, that the declarations of the witnesses were true, and that these declarations should in all reasonableness result in the established legal consequences that reasonable good adult men and women thought were perfectly legitimate.

What evidence did they have that the assertions concerning what they said they saw and were convinced of were really true ?

1. Hundreds if not thousands of people were involved in concluding that what they said they saw and concluded was actually true.
2. The witnesses provided sworn testimony in court, sworn affidavits which we can look at today, and affirmed they were completely utterly convinced that what they were saying was totally completely true.
3. The witnesses came from all social strata, and every diverse background, including the most highly educated of the day.
4. These witnesses included judges, magistrates, the governor of the state, and family members of those about whom the assertions were made.
5. Many involved had much to lose if the assertions were to be found true. The consequences would impact many in very personal ways, if found to be true, thus had no conflict of interest, or reason to lie. Many could lose beloved spouses and family members and friends about whom they cared a great deal.
6. The proceedings were thorough, exhaustive investigations. They deliberately gathered evidence. They made every effort to sort out truth from fallacy. They went to every possible length to actually discern the facts.
7. There are numerous artifacts from the time, and many documents from the proceedings we can review in person today.
8. These proceedings happened, not 2000 years ago, but a mere few hundred years ago. The literacy rate was far far higher than in ancient Israel.
9. For claimed events from 2000 years ago, there are no actual original documents of any kind. None at all. Only copies from centuries later.
10. For the events in question we have sworn documented court testimony, not just word of mouth transmission.
11. A truck full of documents from the proceedings exist at the University of Virginia Library. You can go see the testimony of the eye-witnesses for yourself, today.
12. By any measure or method, the quantity and quality of the evidence for the events in question FAR FAR FAR outweigh the quality of the evidence for the events in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
13. Anyone who claims they have good evidence to support belief in Jesus, his death, and resurrection, or any miracle thought to have happened today, if they are in any way a consistent, honest, logical and a reasonably thoughtful person, they MUST also accept :

Show ContentSpoiler:

That of the 250 people accused, 19 women in Salem Massachusetts, including Sarah Goode, and Rebekah Nurse, The Witches of Salem, really were actually witches, and were justly condemned and executed for performing demon magic.

[Cavebear]

My thoughts are that the burning of witches (the "outsiders") was not limited to the Middle Ages.

I present to you a series of events that occurred in what is now, one of the United States of America.

The Governor of the state in question became involved.
A court was established.
Witnesses were carefully examined and cross-examined, by the best experts of the day.
Evidence was gathered.
Many people confessed in public to the officials of the court.
The entire proceeding was documented with thousands of sworn affidavits, court documents, interviews and related proceedings.
Sufficient evidence was established by intelligent men and women of good faith, that the declarations of the witnesses were true, and that these declarations should in all reasonableness result in the established legal consequences that reasonable good adult men and women thought were perfectly legitimate.

What evidence did they have that the assertions concerning what they said they saw and were convinced of were really true ?

1. Hundreds if not thousands of people were involved in concluding that what they said they saw and concluded was actually true.
2. The witnesses provided sworn testimony in court, sworn affidavits which we can look at today, and affirmed they were completely utterly convinced that what they were saying was totally completely true.
3. The witnesses came from all social strata, and every diverse background, including the most highly educated of the day.
4. These witnesses included judges, magistrates, the governor of the state, and family members of those about whom the assertions were made.
5. Many involved had much to lose if the assertions were to be found true. The consequences would impact many in very personal ways, if found to be true, thus had no conflict of interest, or reason to lie. Many could lose beloved spouses and family members and friends about whom they cared a great deal.
6. The proceedings were thorough, exhaustive investigations. They deliberately gathered evidence. They made every effort to sort out truth from fallacy. They went to every possible length to actually discern the facts.
7. There are numerous artifacts from the time, and many documents from the proceedings we can review in person today.
8. These proceedings happened, not 2000 years ago, but a mere few hundred years ago. The literacy rate was far far higher than in ancient Israel.
9. For claimed events from 2000 years ago, there are no actual original documents of any kind. None at all. Only copies from centuries later.
10. For the events in question we have sworn documented court testimony, not just word of mouth transmission.
11. A truck full of documents from the proceedings exist at the University of Virginia Library. You can go see the testimony of the eye-witnesses for yourself, today.
12. By any measure or method, the quantity and quality of the evidence for the events in question FAR FAR FAR outweigh the quality of the evidence for the events in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.
13. Anyone who claims they have good evidence to support belief in Jesus, his death, and resurrection, or any miracle thought to have happened today, IF they are in any way a consistent, honest, logical and a reasonably thoughtful person, they MUST also accept :

Show ContentSpoiler:

That of the 250 people accused, 19 women in Salem Massachusetts, including Sarah Goode, and Rebekah Nurse, The Witches of Salem, really were actually witches, and were justly condemned and executed for performing demon magic.

This is a teaser. Get to your conclusion, please...

[Minimalist]

History reports that the Salem Witch Trials were brought to a speedy conclusion when the governor returned from an expedition to learn that his wife had been accused.

Perhaps that was merely a coincidence?

[Mr Greene]

"You said "40.000 and 60.000 in three centuries"  I did assume that the period meant "." " ," to me.  Was I incorrect?

From roughly 1400 to roughly 1700. Which is when the last "witch" was executed in Europe. The last woman was being executed on German soil in 1781.

I wish that were true...
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