Time To Ban Boxing?

[Minimalist]

And as Dr. Ann McKee has mentioned the accumulation of "sub-concussive hits" which is basically any impact results in chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) which is  not as immediate as concussions but leads to all sorts of behavioral issues down the road.  The last count I saw was that 98% of the brains she had autopsied of professional athletes showed CTE.  CTE can only be determined after death and many of the brains sent to her were of suicides.   Dave Duerson shot himself in the chest so his brain would be intact for Dr. McKee's investigation.  He had it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Dave Duerson shot himself in the chest so his brain would be intact for Dr. McKee's investigation.  He had it.

Didn't Seau shoot himself in the chest for the same reason?

[Minimalist]

Yes.


All this was going on while the NFL denied there was any link at all between chronic brain injuries and football.

Lying shits.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yes.


All this was going on while the NFL denied there was any link at all between chronic brain injuries and football.

Lying shits.

Right, this had been ongoing from Mike Webster's case in what, '99?

[Minimalist]

Around then, maybe a bit later.

[SYZ]

I don't know about banning it.

I do, and I would—were I king of the world LOL

Where does that stop?  Football and hockey have far more concussions (and its far more insidious cousin, "CTE") and far more participants at risk.  Do you ban them too?  I don't know a thing about rugby but I bet it is the same.

In a high-impact game like Australian Rules Football, head injuries and concussions have
always been common, but public awareness has risen over the last decade towards the
dangers of continuing to play while suffering from a concussion. It's estimated that there
are 5 to 6 players who suffer a concussion for every 1,000 hours spent on the field, meaning
there are 6 to 7 concussions per team during one season.  Rugby rates are nearly the same.

Any player suspected of having a concussion must take a 20 minute concussion test, and
after receiving a concussion, the player must not play in a match for 12 days, until declared
fit to play by a qualified medical doctor.

At any rate, boxing is the only "sport" where the principal aim of opponents is to cause a
serious enough concussion that one or the other is rendered unconscious.  If exactly the same
fight were to take place in the street, the assailant would be charged with assault or grievous
bodily harm, and be jailed.    No other individual and/or team sports focuses solely on causing
disabling physical injuries in order to win than does boxing.

Since 2000, there've been 24 boxers killed in the square ring,  the 26-year-old Arest Saakyan
in January this year being the latest.

I stopped watching boxing years ago and have no use for its modern version
MMA.  But where is it my business to tell someone else not to do it or watch it?

MMA/cage fighting is a truly disgusting display of mankind's primitive animistic origins, and like
boxing plays to the spectators' desire to revel in the spectacle of barbarity and blood.  And I think
we have every right to voice our disgust with MMA and boxing, and their supporters.

In a 2014 meta-analysis, the MMA injury incidence rate was estimated to be 228.7 injuries per
1,000 athlete-exposures. The estimated injury incidence rate in MMA is greater than in other
full-contact combat sports such as judo (44.0 injuries), taekwondo (79.4 injuries) amateur boxing
(77.7 injuries) and professional boxing (118-251 injuries).

And let's not forget the million of dollars gambled and lost every year on these "sports".  Last year,
the Australian government received AU$6.2 billion in gambling revenue.  The total gambling turnover
for 2018-19 was AU$225 billion.

[SYZ]

Right, this had been ongoing from Mike Webster's case in what, '99?

Wiki tells me...

Webster died in 2002 at the age of 50 of a heart attack, and subsequently was the
first former NFL player diagnosed with chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE).
Since his death, he has become a symbol for head injuries in the NFL and the ongoing
debate over player safety. His doctors were of the opinion that multiple concussions
during his career damaged his frontal lobe, which caused cognitive dysfunction.

[Brian37]

I know this thread could generate a lot of aggro, so I'm happy to affirm upfront that
I'm totally against boxing as an alleged "sport".  In my humble opinion, it should be
banned globally, and phased out over, say, a 5-year period, or whatever.

What prompted me to bring this up was this report in my paper this morning, reminding
me of a 23-year-old boxer, Braydon Smith, who lost his life after his fight in 2015 against
John Moralde, here in Australia.

Tyson Fury beats Deontay Wilder by TKO to win WBC heavyweight world championship in Las Vegas.

The condition boxers too often suffer from is chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE),
previously called the "punch drunk" syndrome, boxer’s dementia or dementia pugilistica.
This causes progressive memory problems, personality change and slowness of movement
and is now considered a possible precursor of Alzheimer’s disease.

Blows to the head cause two different kinds of injury. The face is cut and bruised by
direct impacts, but damage to the brain is caused largely by rotational acceleration
of the cerebral cortex around the much smaller midbrain and spinal cord. This damage
may be aggravated by boxing gloves since they add weight and thus energy to punches,
causing more rotational acceleration.

Amongst contact sports, boxing is a special case.  No other sport has the express goal of
causing injury to the brain. That's certainly the aim of professional boxing. Even in amateur
boxing, blows to the head are crucial, and protective headgear may not stop injury from
rotational acceleration.

John Corsellis, a neuroscientist specialising in brain trauma studies at the Maudsley
Hospital in London, has called for a ban on boxing—writing a research paper published in
the BMJ (British Medical Journal 1989). He further said, "My opinion is that the brain
should not be the target in any sport, and no amount of juggling with the regulations can
take away that risk. Experienced and outstanding boxers are themselves aware of the
risk, difficult as it may be for them eventually to call a halt." (New Scientist 2013).

Medical authorities in Australia are calling for a national ban on boxing. "We believe that
a so-called sport where two people knock each other in the head as often as you possibly
can to win a bout seems rather barbaric," the Australian Medical Association president
Shaun Rudd said in 2015.  "You’re not allowed to hit the organs beneath the belt, whereas
you’re allowed to hit the organ above your shoulder, which is the most important organ in
the body."

—I know in advance that American boxing fans will be outraged by any suggestions of a
total ban on boxing, but I then take note that these same sorts of people elected their
current President, who many consider to also be brain damaged.

     

I get it, I don't like the sport either. In other contact sports, like soccer, hitting your head with the ball can cause concussions. A baseball hitting your head can do the same. Hockey has body checks and superfluous fights, and the puck too, if it hits the player's head. Then there is rugby and Australian rules football.  

I get your point, but who gets to decide what risk taking people take? And especially on a planet of 7 billion, you are not going to purge an entire plant of one sport. Just like when some atheists think it is possible to purge the world of religion. There is no such thing as a utopia.

[SYZ]

I get it, I don't like the sport either. In other contact sports, like soccer, hitting your head with the ball can cause concussions. A baseball hitting your head can do the same. Hockey has body checks and superfluous fights, and the puck too, if it hits the player's head. Then there is rugby and Australian rules football.  

I get your point, but who gets to decide what risk taking people take? And especially on a planet of 7 billion, you are not going to purge an entire planet of one sport. Just like when some atheists think it is possible to purge the world of religion. There is no such thing as a utopia.

Getting hit on the head (and concussed?) by a ball or puck or whatever, is purely
accidental, and has no relationship to boxing-induced head injuries where the
injury is intentional.  As I said earlier, in a boxing match, deliberate injury to an
opponent is absolutely  intentional.

I think we have every right to protect people from their own ignorance, and that
ignorance's potential negative effects on the wider society.  

Do we have "a right to self injure"?     

ETA: Here in Australia, we've banned greyhound racing in 5 of our seven states,
banned hurdles horse racing in all states, and banned the importation, breeding,
or ownership of American pit bull terriers.    These things can be done it seems.

Side note: I note that dog racing is still legal in Arkansas, Iowa, West Virginia,
Alabama, Connecticut, and Kansas.    (I'm not sure if this is up to date?)

[Thumpalumpacus]

Do we have "a right to self injure"?     

I think suicide should be legal. I think assisted suicide should be legal.

[abaris]

Getting hit on the head (and concussed?) by a ball or puck or whatever, is purely
accidental, and has no relationship to boxing-induced head injuries where the
injury is intentional.  As I said earlier, in a boxing match, deliberate injury to an
opponent is absolutely  intentional.

I think we have every right to protect people from their own ignorance, and that
ignorance's potential negative effects on the wider society.  

Do we have "a right to self injure"?     

These people make a choice. And the champs earn millions. Yes, we have a choice to do with our bodies as we please.

[Minimalist]

MMA/cage fighting is a truly disgusting display of mankind's primitive animistic origins, and like
boxing plays to the spectators' desire to revel in the spectacle of barbarity and blood.

So is cockfighting.  Bull fighting.  War.  Poverty.  The Ice Capades ( to steal a line from George Carlin.)  I agree with you but where the fuck do I get the right to tell others what to do with their lives?

[SYZ]

I think suicide should be legal. I think assisted suicide should be legal.

In November 2017, Victoria became the first Australian state to pass
legislation allowing assisted suicide. The law gives anyone suffering a
terminal illness, with less than six months to live, the right to end their
life. Other states are currently legislating a similar law, with only one
state, NSW, permanently maintaining its illegality.

Suicide, per se, is not illegal in Australia.

[SYZ]

So is cockfighting.  Bull fighting.  War.  Poverty.  The Ice Capades ( to steal a line from George Carlin.)  I agree with you but where the fuck do I get the right to tell others what to do with their lives?

So on this basis, you have no problem with people shooting up near your kid's
school, driving while alcohol impaired, shooting stray dogs in the street, playing
loud music at 3AM, parking in disabled spots, or dropping their fast food rubbish
in the street, or pissing in your front garden, or not paying for a ticket on the bus?

Wow!

[Thumpalumpacus]

In November 2017, Victoria became the first Australian state to pass
legislation allowing assisted suicide. The law gives anyone suffering a
terminal illness, with less than six months to live, the right to end their
life. Other states are currently legislating a similar law, with only one
state, NSW, permanently maintaining its illegality.

Suicide, per se, is not illegal in Australia.

Do you support that law, or oppose it?

[Thumpalumpacus]

So on this basis, you have no problem with people shooting up near your kid's
school, driving while alcohol impaired, shooting stray dogs in the street, playing
loud music at 3AM, parking in disabled spots, or dropping their fast food rubbish
in the street, or pissing in your front garden, or not paying for a ticket on the bus?

Wow!

The boxers aren't hurting anyone else but themselves, which renders these lurid comparisons irrelevant.

[SYZ]

Do you support that law, or oppose it?

I've always supported the right of someone to end their life when the time
is appropriate and the relevant clinical professionals have been consulted
by the individual as far as his or her possible options are concerned.  

Legalising voluntary assisted death (VAD) laws nationwide is critical in order to
preclude unduly protracted legal proceedings, or psychological stressors on the
subject and their family/friends/partners, or the medical professional prescribing
the means of enabling the VAD.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've always supported the right of someone to end their life when the time
is appropriate and the relevant clinical professionals have been consulted
by the individual as far as his or her possible options are concerned.  

Legalising voluntary assisted death (VAD) laws nationwide is critical in order to
preclude unduly protracted legal proceedings, or psychological stressors on the
subject and their family/friends/partners, or the medical professional prescribing
the means of enabling the VAD.

So then people do have the right to harm themselves so long as they aren't inflicting harm on anyone else? Is that an accurate summary of your view?

[SYZ]

The boxers aren't hurting anyone else but themselves, which renders these lurid comparisons irrelevant.

Well, it depends on your viewpoint I guess.  I maintain that a boxer does in fact
injure another person—his opponent obviously.  If I lay someone out in the street
with a haymaker, then I'll be facing a criminal charge.  

Perpetrators of so-called "one-punch" deaths face 10 years in jail in Victoria. The
sentence will apply whether the death is caused by the punch, or by the victim
striking his or her head in the fall.

Volenti non fit injuria  (Latin: "to a willing person, injury is not done") is a
common law doctrine which states that if someone willingly places themselves in
a position where harm might result, knowing that some degree of harm might
result, they are not able to bring a claim against the other party in tort or delict;
thus a boxer consents to being hit, and to the injuries that might be expected
from being hit.      (Does injuria  include being killed?)

Boxing is a dangerous sport. Unlike most other sports, its basic intent is to produce
bodily harm in the opponent. Boxing can result in death and produces an alarming
incidence of chronic brain injury.   For this reason, the World Medical Association
recommends that boxing be banned.

[SYZ]

So then people do have the right to harm themselves so long as they aren't inflicting harm on anyone else? Is that an accurate summary of your view?

Um... I don't understand the point of your question.

[Minimalist]

The boxers aren't hurting anyone else but themselves, which renders these lurid comparisons irrelevant.

Thump beat me to it.

[abaris]

So on this basis, you have no problem with people shooting up near your kid's
school, driving while alcohol impaired, shooting stray dogs in the street, playing
loud music at 3AM, parking in disabled spots, or dropping their fast food rubbish
in the street, or pissing in your front garden, or not paying for a ticket on the bus?

Wow!

What part of, as long as they don't harm anyone else, do you not understand?

All the examples you named could lead to harm to others, so they are moot in lights of boxing and a fighter making a conscious decision. It's all about your own body. Do with it as you like. If you like to pump yourself full of drugs, do it, if you like to fight in a ring, be my guest.

The line is only crossed, when others get in harm's way.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, it depends on your viewpoint I guess.  I maintain that a boxer does in fact
injure another person—his opponent obviously.  If I lay someone out in the street
with a haymaker, then I'll be facing a criminal charge.  

That rather ignores the fact of consent. In the ring, both boxers agree that getting hit, hurt, maimed, or even killed is a possibility. No one is forced to box. Your victim hasn't given you any consent to strike him, hence the criminality of the act.

Again, apples and oranges. Pedantry aside, does boxing harm anyone outside of the ring -- i.e., someone who hasn't accepted the rules of the contest?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Um... I don't understand the point of your question.

You needn't. Might you simply answer it? There's a point to it, but I'd like an answer.

[airportkid]

... does boxing harm anyone outside of the ring, e.g. someone who hasn't accepted the rules of the contest ... ?

The boxer's children.  The boxer's spouse.  The boxer's friends, acquaintances, associates, relatives who care about his well being and are emotionally affected by adverse effects on health and mental function.  The same is true of people who depend on his unimpaired cognitive function, such as business partners.  To dismiss all of these is to claim no one has any social obligations, which we all bear, regardless of whether we think they're "fair" or "deserved".  Many, far too many, people do behave as if their needs and desires are untethered from their social circle, and we have a word for such people:  selfish.

Superficially, engaging willfully in a high risk activity that seems only to risk personal damage appears to affect only that individual, but that's only true for hermits with no living relatives, no friends, no connections with others.  Everyone else, which comprise 99.999999% of the human population, makes empathetic ripples in the common pond of humanity that cannot be casually disregarded.