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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?

UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 12:16 AM)Free Wrote: For me, it's going to require government confirmation, or a sustained sighting covered by multiple news media before I will bat an eyelash at it.

I'll trust video. Unequivocal video. Multiple sources, multiple angles.
On hiatus.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 12:50 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Considering the current known "radius" of the Universe is over 30 BILLION light years there could be endless civilizations out that that we will never know of.

... and quite possibly would never know of us.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 12:50 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Considering the current known "radius" of the Universe is over 30 BILLION light years there could be endless civilizations out that that we will never know of.
In the scope of the whole universe, assuming it to be infinite, there should be infinite numbers of intelligent civilizations. It is just a function of how spread out they are both in space and time as to whether we will encounter them or not at any point in our own development.

Much as I'd like to see it, a Star Trek style universe of faster-than-light travel at scale and faster-than-light communication among hundreds of worlds even in our arm of the galaxy, seems pretty unlikely. And keep in mind, Star Trek technology enables traveling tens of thousands of times the speed of light without issues with inertia or gravity and instantaneously transferring matter up to 20,000 miles without equipment on the receiving end. Real tech would be unlikely to be that fancifully perfect.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 12:25 AM)mordant Wrote:
(01-23-2021, 06:00 PM)Free Wrote: My personal view of a non-earthly intelligent lifeform is really not that much different than how we as humans would view an intellectually lower lifeform here on earth, such as a bird, or a mouse etc.

We do not really pay much attention to intellectually inferior lifeforms here on earth, so I would understand why an intellectually superior lifeform from somewhere else wouldn't be very interested in us. They may be interested in the planet due to its resources in the same way our ancestors were interested in North America. But if we can put our human vanity aside and consider that perhaps we are not all that and a bag of chips in the view of an intellectually superior species, then perhaps we can understand why they don't contact us if they visit this planet.

We are to them what a mouse is to us. Primitive. Uninteresting. And maybe a little scary.

We tend to look at the universe as some vast expanse of unknowns. But to an intellectually and technologically superior race, they may see the universe the way we see another nation here on earth. The universe to them is what earth is to us. Where we see a planet, they see an island in the very vast sea.

I suspect that they would have the same problems communicating with us as we do with a cat, or a dog, or even an aardvark. Basic math, or the counting of numbers would be the first attempt at communication, as well as some common symbols such as an arrow.

Although we would require absolute proof that they have visited this planet before we can make any positive claims, there still may be people among us who have experienced that absolute proof on a personal level, and thereby stand alone with their knowledge, requiring us to either accept or reject their claims.

But I think all of us here now acknowledge that considering the vastnesses of this universe and the fact that we can view planets orbiting other stars, the probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe would be so exceptionally high that it would make the improbability infinitely small. Our perspective is that the universe is "out there." But the reality is that it is also "in here." We are not separate from the universe; we are part of it. 

After all, we as humans on this planet earth represent the precedence of intelligent life existing in the universe. We are the example that it is true.

That is ... if we really are intelligent. Sometimes I have my doubts.

ROFL2
I pretty much agree with you, but in considering that there are countless planets around countless stars, you have some unknowns to reckon with:

1) Only a tiny percentage of them would support life. Exactly what percentage is uncertain.
2) We don't know whether life, where it appears, typically evolves as far and with as much variety as on Earth -- or how frequently.
3) On the tiny percentage of planets that support life, and the tiny percentage of those planets where sentient / intelligent live evolves, we don't know how many get past various evolutionary "hard stops" or how many there are. Maybe we have almost reached ours -- our technology outstripping our wisdom. As such, maybe sentient life advanced enough to be interstellar is very rare, on the order of say 2 or 3 such civilizations in the whole galaxy.
4) Then you have to contend with whether such civilizations last a long enough time that their influence and activity overlap with us. Even a relatively successful intelligent life form might have a shelf-life of 100,000 years and the other ones in this galaxy already came and went or have yet to arise.
5) Then there's the whole problem of how varied life is and whether we'd recognize it or whether other sentient beings would find it worthwhile to explore the interstellar void for any reason. It's plausible that interstellar travel would be too resource-intensive to be pursued for obtaining resources or expanding territory, or for mere exploration. It's not a given that every species would even have that form of scientific curiosity to motivate them.

So you can be 100% correct in all that you said, but the odds of us detecting or encountering or being encountered by other civilizations or the remnants thereof could still be vanishingly small, especially given the great distances involved.

You could be correct, but I think that depends on all things being equal throughout the universe, and I doubt that is likely.

For example, the hominidae genus that we belong to has been around for some 15 - 20 million years, existing on a planet that is about 4 billion years old. Our evolutionary path may actually be very short compared to some other species from another planet. They could be billions of years ahead of us both on the evolutionary path, as well as the intellectual and technological development path.

How we measure distance and how to travel it may be quite meaningless to them, or at the very least, exceptionally primitive. Where we tend to look at a straight line as being the shortest distance between two points, they may not see distance at all, or if so, they perhaps don't see it as an obstacle to travelling.

If they have billions of years of evolution behind them, they would undoubtedly have developed technologies so intellectually superior that we as humans simply do not have the intellectual development to even imagine, let alone grasp. 

We once believed that nothing moves faster than light. Yet with space expansion, two points can be moved away from each other much faster than the speed of light. Therefore, if space was to be condensed, two points could be moved closer together faster than the speed of light. In this hypothetical scenario, a single point in space could traverse billions of light years in an instant, if a technology was developed that could manipulate space in this way.

We are still learning, and we always will learn more, as we also evolve to become more than what we currently are. It's just the nature of things.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-23-2021, 06:00 PM)Free Wrote: ...We tend to look at the universe as some vast expanse of unknowns.
But to an intellectually and technologically superior race, they may see the universe the way we see another nation here on earth. The universe to them is what earth is to us. Where we see a planet, they see an island in the very vast sea.

A minor nitpick, the universe? Can we scale things back a bit. The Milky Way is the only universe we will ever know, we will never leave it.
Ok, for the major nitpickers there's the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy and a few dust clouds all of which are closer to our sun than the sun is to the centre of the Milky Way.
Forget the Andromeda Galaxy. It's 2.5 million light years away.

But anyway, if this 'intellectually and technologically superior race' have no interest in us then why the fuck would they expend vast resources getting here only to fuck off back home after?
Wouldn't the smart move be for the mother ship to stand off in say, the Oort cloud or hide in Neptune's atmosphere?
From such a vantage point they would absorb and study all electromagnetic communications on Earth, including Wikipedia and Atheist Discussion.org.

In short, the computing power they would undoubtedly have would tell them everything worth knowing about planet Earth and its denizens.
No need to send down a drone in the guise of a duck to buzz a couple of bored Air force pilots.*

Quote:I suspect that they would have the same problems communicating with us as we do with a cat, or a dog, or even an aardvark. Basic math, or the counting of numbers would be the first attempt at communication, as well as some common symbols such as an arrow.

And yet puny human brains  like that of Jean-François Champollion revealed to us in much detail the working of ancient civilisations.

Common symbols such as an arrow? Common among who?
I think it's pretty clear now where you're going wrong in the Jebus thread.

Quote:Although we would require absolute proof that they have visited this planet before we can make any positive claims, there still may be people among us who have experienced that absolute proof on a personal level, and thereby stand alone with their knowledge, requiring us to either accept or reject their claims.

Like Catholics? This is not knowledge it's conviction, not the same thing. Why did you bother to type this drivel?

Quote:But I think all of us here now acknowledge that considering the vastnesses of this universe and the fact that we can view planets orbiting other stars, the probability of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe would be so exceptionally high that it would make the improbability infinitely small. Our perspective is that the universe is "out there." But the reality is that it is also "in here." We are not separate from the universe; we are part of it. 

This is a waste of keyboard ink.

* But then:

Quote:Teasers are usually rich kids with nothing to do. They cruise around looking for planets that haven’t made interstellar contact yet and buzz them.” “Buzz them?” Arthur began to feel that Ford was enjoying making life difficult for him. “Yeah,” said Ford, “they buzz them. They find some isolated spot with very few people around, then land right by some poor unsuspecting soul whom no one’s ever going to believe and then strut up and down in front of him wearing silly antennas on their head and making beep beep noises.
D Adams. Big Grin
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 02:55 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(01-23-2021, 06:00 PM)Free Wrote: ...We tend to look at the universe as some vast expanse of unknowns.
But to an intellectually and technologically superior race, they may see the universe the way we see another nation here on earth. The universe to them is what earth is to us. Where we see a planet, they see an island in the very vast sea.

A minor nitpick, the universe? Can we scale things back a bit. The Milky Way is the only universe we will ever know, we will never leave it.

The Milky Way is a galaxy, and is just one of two trillion known galaxies in the observable universe. 

Quote:But anyway, if this 'intellectually and technologically superior race' have no interest in us then why the fuck would they expend vast resources getting here only to fuck off back home after?

You assume vast resources when that is unknown to us. The planet and the solar system may be of interest to them, and not us as a species. And how would we know they come here and then "fuck off back home?" You are looking at this from just our human perspective, while my argument is that they would be nothing like us at all. They may not even be humanoid.


Quote:Wouldn't the smart move be for the mother ship to stand off in say, the Oort cloud or hide in Neptune's atmosphere?
From such a vantage point they would absorb and study all electromagnetic communications on Earth, including Wikipedia and Atheist Discussion.org.

lol

I see way too much Star Wars in this. 

Quote:In short, the computing power they would undoubtedly have would tell them everything worth knowing about planet Earth and its denizens. No need to send down a drone in the guise of a duck to buzz a couple of bored Air force pilots.
 

lol

Stop thinking "human."

Quote:
Quote:I suspect that they would have the same problems communicating with us as we do with a cat, or a dog, or even an aardvark. Basic math, or the counting of numbers would be the first attempt at communication, as well as some common symbols such as an arrow.

And yet puny human brains  like that of Jean-François Champollion revealed to us in much detail the working of ancient civilisations.

Common symbols such as an arrow? Common among who? I think it's pretty clear now where you're going wrong in the Jebus thread.

An arrow has a point that indicates direction ----> from one point to another. Very basic and easy to understand. The shape of the arrow can be traced back at least 4000 years. In fact, a diagram with an arrow was sent with Pioneer 10 and 11, with the hopes that it would be understood.

[Image: Pioneer_plaque_solar_system.svg]


https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/c...ymbols_as/

Quote:
Quote:Although we would require absolute proof that they have visited this planet before we can make any positive claims, there still may be people among us who have experienced that absolute proof on a personal level, and thereby stand alone with their knowledge, requiring us to either accept or reject their claims.

Like Catholics? This is not knowledge it's conviction, not the same thing. Why did you bother to type this drivel?

It's a hypothetical discussion. Some here find it interesting. Others, like yourself, seem to get your panties all in a bunch about it.

No one is forcing you to participate.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
Why the hell would a race capable of inter-galactic travel spend a shitload of whatever they use for money just to come here?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-19-2021, 01:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Was Oumuamua a spacecraft ?
https://www.salon.com/2021/01/15/why-phy...pacecraft/

No.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-23-2021, 09:02 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Well, we do study "lower" biota, down to single-celled plants. We also communicate with them, though we obviously have problems understanding them and their languages (such as they might be). We also smush them, euthanize them, and train them for various ugly tasks we don't like to do.

I would imagine that telecomm would be required in spacecraft from another civilization too, meaning that they would probably have an understanding of the radio spectrum -- throughout which we broadcast copious amounts of information that they might or might not understand, but which would likely arouse their interest. I mean, I may be guilty of anthropocentrism, but it's hard for me to imagine a species curious enough to explore the Universe, and smart enough to make that happen technologically, blithely disregarding a species displaying so much evidence of a technological society as we do.

To close: whatever "proof" any individual may have, if it cannot be demonstrated to someone else, there's no real way to know if it's evidence or not. So yes, the lack of tangible evidence is a sticking point for me.

Consider that the sphere of non-random electromagnetic radiation emanating from Terra is no more than 250 light years in diameter. 
Given the scale of our galaxy, the chance of being detected by other technological civilizations in our galaxy is minute.

[Image: 20130115_radio_broadcasts.jpg]
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-23-2021, 03:26 PM)mordant Wrote: When it comes to UFOs, ʻOumuamua is probably more credible as alien than anything sighted in Earth's atmosphere (which is to say, not very credible, but still ...)

A minority of credible scientists think the possibility of this object being artificial should be seriously entertained, but even they don't have incontrovertible evidence...

I could only find one who posited this:

Theoretical physicist professor Abraham Loeb, the chair of Harvard’s
astronomy department, co-wrote a paper—with a Harvard postdoctoral
fellow, Shmuel Bialy—that examined Oumuamua’s peculiar acceleration 
and suggested that the object may be a fully operational probe sent
intentionally to Earth’s vicinity by an alien civilization
.

In a few days, Loeb's releasing a book, "Extraterrestrial: The First Sign of
Intelligent Life Beyond Earth", which describes the possibility that Oumauamua
may be alien technology, although such an explanation is considered very
unlikely
by most scientists.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 02:03 AM)mordant Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 12:50 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Considering the current known "radius" of the Universe is over 30 BILLION light years there could be endless civilizations out that that we will never know of.
In the scope of the whole universe, assuming it to be infinite, there should be infinite numbers of intelligent civilizations.
I said that. You don't need to hang your comments on mine.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 02:14 AM)Free Wrote: Therefore, if space was to be condensed, two points could be moved closer together faster than the speed of light. In this hypothetical scenario, a single point in space could traverse billions of light years in an instant, if a technology was developed that could manipulate space in this way.

We are still learning, and we always will learn more, as we also evolve to become more than what we currently are. It's just the nature of things.

Consider this: such a technology ought to radiate incredible amounts of energy -- perhaps more than the largest of black holes, which, after all, are only shifting spacetime at sub-c speeds. Yet do we observe any energy sources like that close enough to Earth to facilitate our being observed by an exospecies?
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(01-24-2021, 01:03 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 02:14 AM)Free Wrote: Therefore, if space was to be condensed, two points could be moved closer together faster than the speed of light. In this hypothetical scenario, a single point in space could traverse billions of light years in an instant, if a technology was developed that could manipulate space in this way.

We are still learning, and we always will learn more, as we also evolve to become more than what we currently are. It's just the nature of things.

Consider this: such a technology ought to radiate incredible amounts of energy -- perhaps more than the largest of black holes, which, after all, are only shifting spacetime at sub-c speeds. Yet do we observe any energy sources like that close enough to Earth to facilitate our being observed by an exospecies?

According to our current level of education and intellectual development your argument makes sense.

But then again ... wtf does our species really know?
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 05:47 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Why the hell would a race capable of inter-galactic travel spend a shitload of whatever they use for money just to come here?

For the fucking hotdogs, man!
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 04:34 PM)Free Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 01:03 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 02:14 AM)Free Wrote: Therefore, if space was to be condensed, two points could be moved closer together faster than the speed of light. In this hypothetical scenario, a single point in space could traverse billions of light years in an instant, if a technology was developed that could manipulate space in this way.

We are still learning, and we always will learn more, as we also evolve to become more than what we currently are. It's just the nature of things.

Consider this: such a technology ought to radiate incredible amounts of energy -- perhaps more than the largest of black holes, which, after all, are only shifting spacetime at sub-c speeds. Yet do we observe any energy sources like that close enough to Earth to facilitate our being observed by an exospecies?

According to our current level of education and intellectual development your argument makes sense.

But then again ... wtf does our species really know?

We know how to look 13 billion light-years out to detect faint radiation. I'd imagine we could do the same over the course of a couple of light years, detecting the energy that would clearly be required to bend the fabric of space-time.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 05:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 04:34 PM)Free Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 01:03 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Consider this: such a technology ought to radiate incredible amounts of energy -- perhaps more than the largest of black holes, which, after all, are only shifting spacetime at sub-c speeds. Yet do we observe any energy sources like that close enough to Earth to facilitate our being observed by an exospecies?

According to our current level of education and intellectual development your argument makes sense.

But then again ... wtf does our species really know?

We know how to look 13 billion light-years out to detect faint radiation. I'd imagine we could do the same over the course of a couple of light years, detecting the energy that would clearly be required to bend the fabric of space-time.

That reminds me.

I often wonder through what lens do we measure distance such as those 13 billion light years. My understanding is that mass- such as all the mass in our solar system- warps spacetime. It's like a localized compression of spacetime within the gravitational effect of our sun. But as we travel away from the mass of our solar system, the gravitational compression would become less effective, and if we virtually escape it by going beyond, say, Pluto ... wouldn't we hit fairly normal space to such an extent that the distance to the nearest star from earth (4 light years) may be drastically reduced due to the less localized gravitation effect of spacetime?

Wouldn't other stars then measure closer?
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 04:40 PM)Free Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 05:47 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Why the hell would a race capable of inter-galactic travel spend a shitload of whatever they use for money just to come here?

For the fucking hotdogs tacos, man!
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(01-24-2021, 06:30 PM)Free Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 05:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 04:34 PM)Free Wrote: According to our current level of education and intellectual development your argument makes sense.

But then again ... wtf does our species really know?

We know how to look 13 billion light-years out to detect faint radiation. I'd imagine we could do the same over the course of a couple of light years, detecting the energy that would clearly be required to bend the fabric of space-time.

That reminds me.

I often wonder through what lens do we measure distance such as those 13 billion light years. My understanding is that mass- such as all the mass in our solar system- warps spacetime. It's like a localized compression of spacetime within the gravitational effect of our sun. But as we travel away from the mass of our solar system, the gravitational compression would become less effective, and if we virtually escape it by going beyond, say, Pluto ... wouldn't we hit fairly normal space to such an extent that the distance to the nearest star from earth (4 light years) may be drastically reduced due to the less localized gravitation effect of spacetime?

Wouldn't other stars then measure closer?
Look up "red shift".

They've measured galaxies out as far as 30+ billion light years.

Just to mess with your head, nothing can go faster than the speed of light, and it does.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 04:40 PM)Free Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 05:47 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Why the hell would a race capable of inter-galactic travel spend a shitload of whatever they use for money just to come here?

For the fucking hotdogs, man!

Your produce alone has been worth the trip.

“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. 
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”
― Napoleon Bonaparte
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
(01-24-2021, 05:47 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Why the hell would a race capable of inter-galactic travel spend a shitload of whatever they use for money just to come here?

How much did we spend to go to our boring-ass moon?

Also -- an advanced civilization using free market economics? Lol
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(01-24-2021, 07:32 PM)Aegon Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 05:47 AM)Minimalist Wrote: Why the hell would a race capable of inter-galactic travel spend a shitload of whatever they use for money just to come here?

How much did we spend to go to our boring-ass moon?

Also -- an advanced civilization using free market economics? Lol
The Moon has water, which is rocket fuel. It has minerals that can be used to build rockets. There's a fair amount of sunlight, except on cloudy days, to provide energy. We can live, work, and farm in lava tubes that would protect us from radiation. Luna is the first step to the rest of the universe.
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(01-24-2021, 07:38 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The Moon has water ... There's a fair amount of sunlight, except on cloudy days ...

Those cloudy days have long obstructed good clear observation of the Moon's surface, frustrating astronomers for centuries, and baffling physicists trying to account for their sheer existence on a planetary body with no atmosphere.  Even today there's no agreement on their composition - water, ice, ammonia, MEK, meteoric dust, WD-40, or sock lint.
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UFOs: No Longer Crazy?
What the fuck are you talking about? They've observe ice on the Moon. Our moon, Luna. YMMV
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Water, yes.  Clouds?  I suppose I shoulda used the satire smiley  Tongue
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(01-24-2021, 06:30 PM)Free Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 05:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 04:34 PM)Free Wrote: According to our current level of education and intellectual development your argument makes sense.

But then again ... wtf does our species really know?

We know how to look 13 billion light-years out to detect faint radiation. I'd imagine we could do the same over the course of a couple of light years, detecting the energy that would clearly be required to bend the fabric of space-time.

That reminds me.

I often wonder through what lens do we measure distance such as those 13 billion light years. My understanding is that mass- such as all the mass in our solar system- warps spacetime. It's like a localized compression of spacetime within the gravitational effect of our sun. But as we travel away from the mass of our solar system, the gravitational compression would become less effective, and if we virtually escape it by going beyond, say, Pluto ... wouldn't we hit fairly normal space to such an extent that the distance to the nearest star from earth (4 light years) may be drastically reduced due to the less localized gravitation effect of spacetime?

Wouldn't other stars then measure closer?

Wouldn't those other stars, most of which are more massive (and therefore wield more gravity) than our sun, also pull spacetime their way?
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