Fate.

[Thingymebob]

Is fate and pre determination the same thing?

Is this just semantics?

If fate isn't something that's predetermined, what is it?
 I think we end up where we are in life through choices, I personally have made some really bad choices in the past and got exactly what I deserved for making them. If fate was a thing I would feel blameless... Or would I? 

[Cavebear]

Is fate and pre determination the same thing?

Is this just semantics?

If fate isn't something that's predetermined, what is it?
 I think we end up where we are in life through choices, I personally have made some really bad choices in the past and got exactly what I deserved for making them. If fate was a thing I would feel blameless... Or would I? 

Cheap "playing it both ways".

Fate does not exist.

[Thingymebob]

If fate isn't something that's predetermined, what is it?
 I think we end up where we are in life through choices, I personally have made some really bad choices in the past and got exactly what I deserved for making them. If fate was a thing I would feel blameless... Or would I? 

Cheap "playing it both ways".

Fate does not exist.

Yeah that's what I've been saying ya tool.

[Aliza]

Well, since it's an atheist forum, I thought I'd share my religion's view on "fate" so it can be compared to Christianity's view.

In Judaism, we believe in 100% free will, but that doesn't mean G-d doesn't introduce elements to shape the outcome. Never-the-less, everything is 100% your choice. On the occasions that G-d steps in to shape the story of our lives, we must be offered a real choice. It can't be that G-d is forcing you to choose something to achieve a preferred outcome. That said, G-d knows what you'll choose, because from G-d's position outside of time, you already chose it.

The story of the universe is kind of like a Dungeon's and Dragon role-playing game, except the game has already run and someone recorded the entire game on their smartphone. We were all characters in the story, and we were tested and challenged along the way to create rich stories. The choices were always ours to make, but someone later watching the video of the story of our lives knows what choices we made. G-d is in both positions simultaneously; both manipulating the game as the dungeon master, and also watching the recording of the game. From the perspective of someone reading the story after the fact, it's fate that we chose one path instead of another because it was already chosen. But it's also free will.

How does that measure up against the Christian view?

[Thingymebob]

Of course god can have it both ways, he's god. Isn't it convenient for him that if for example I chose to take a shortcut home and then accidentally got entangled in a combine harvester resulting in my death, he has a clean conscience.
Maybe this god character only meddles with things that have a happy ending?

[Aliza]

Of course god can have it both ways, he's god. Isn't it convenient for him that if for example I chose to take a shortcut home and then accidentally got entangled in a combine harvester resulting in my death, he has a clean conscience.
Maybe this god character only meddles with things that have a happy ending?

G-d is both good and bad. It's not about a happy ending. It's about experiencing things, learning and growing. What you're supposed to experience is joy, but you can't have joy without sadness to define it. 

Judaism basically states that while you're here, you will experience good and bad. If you prefer good experiences, make good choices to help stack the deck in your favor.

[Thingymebob]

Of course god can have it both ways, he's god. Isn't it convenient for him that if for example I chose to take a shortcut home and then accidentally got entangled in a combine harvester resulting in my death, he has a clean conscience.
Maybe this god character only meddles with things that have a happy ending?

G-d is both good and bad. It's not about a happy ending. It's about experiencing things, learning and growing. What you're supposed to experience is joy, but you can't have joy without sadness to define it. 

Judaism basically states that while you're here, you will experience good and bad. If you prefer good experiences, make good choices to help stack the deck in your favor.

You do realise that there are people out there who have never and will never experience anything close to joy? People who from birth spend their entire lives unable to make any sort of choice.
Why would a god that knows what sort of life millions of people will have to suffer sit on his hands outside of space and time watching on? 
And more importantly why would anyone want to worship it?

[Aliza]

G-d is both good and bad. It's not about a happy ending. It's about experiencing things, learning and growing. What you're supposed to experience is joy, but you can't have joy without sadness to define it. 

Judaism basically states that while you're here, you will experience good and bad. If you prefer good experiences, make good choices to help stack the deck in your favor.

You do realise that there are people out there who have never and will never experience anything close to joy? People who from birth spend their entire lives unable to make any sort of choice.
Why would a god that knows what sort of life millions of people will have to suffer sit on his hands outside of space and time watching on? 
And more importantly why would anyone want to worship it?

I dunno! But it's sad that some people never experience joy of any kind whatsoever. I wish the people around them had the gumption to do something about it if they were aware of such constant, crushing sadness.

[Vera]

I dunno! But it's sad that some people never experience joy of any kind whatsoever. I wish the people around them had the gumption to do something about it if they were aware of such constant, crushing sadness.

Um, why are we assuming that those around them have it any better? Or do you honestly think the only reason for a joyless existence is depression? You do realise a lot of people's life is one big, desperate fight for literal survival? And I'm not even talking about people who were or are living in conflict zones (some of them - their whole lives). Are their lives *totally* devoid of any joy? Probably not because we're resilient little buggers. That doesn't mean that the horrid doesn't significantly outweigh the supposed joy in the life of a scary number of people.

And this is before we get to all the other suffering in life. We all love cute little fluffy bunnies but those cute little fluffy bunnies are leading an often terrifying existence. Like all other life forms whose lives consist almost entirely of trying not to starve and/or get eaten.

In the words of Milan Kundera:

"A meadow is nothing but a field of suffering. Every second some creature is dying in the gorgeous green expanse, ants eat wriggling earthworms, birds lurk in the sky to pounce on a weasel or a mouse. You see that black cat, standing motionless in the grass. She is only waiting for an opportunity to kill. I detest all that naïve respect for nature. Do you think that a doe in the jaws of a tiger feels less horror than you? People thought up the idea that animals don’t have the same capability for suffering as human, because otherwise they couldn’t bear the knowledge that they are surrounded by a world of nature that is horror and nothing but horror."

So no offence to all the nice religious people who actually *do* feel some sort of cognitive dissonance, trying to reconcile the idea of a good god and the undeniable reality of an undeniably cruel world (because many don't even give it a thought), but all this "we need sadness in order to know joy" is unabashed, often selfish and privileged, bunkum.

This world is patently cruel and could only have been "created" by blind natural forces. Or by a monster. We all get to pick an explanation we can live with. Me, I can live with blind... a god responsible for all of this? This is the most abhorrent thing I can imagine.

[Inkubus]

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden

[Aliza]

I guess I just don't understand why, if we know people are suffering, would we blame G-d for that? We should be blaming ourselves. We're the ones in control. We're the ones who get to make the choices.

[Inkubus]

We don't blame god.

[Aliza]

We don't blame god.

You blame humanity, right?

[rocinantexyz]

...it's fate that we chose one path instead of another because it was already chosen. But it's also free will.

Does god know the outcome of random events that haven't happened yet? Like say you have a small collection of objects, each with a half-life of 10 minutes. Does god know which ones won't last 10 minutes ahead of time? If so, is it possible for god to communicate this information (like say give you a list of the ones that won't survive) to a human being ahead of time?

[Vera]

I guess I just don't understand why, if we know people are suffering, would we blame G-d for that? We should be blaming ourselves. We're the ones in control. We're the ones who get to make the choices.

You really do not get it, do you?

I've barely slept in two days and have to finish a project, like, right now, so cannot reply in as much a detail as I'd like, but just to try and make you see what we are *actually* talking about, let's forget about the ills of human society and just talk about the suffering of all other animals which we, "the ones who get to make the choices" cant conceivably redress.

Why would a benevolent god create a world where ALL life has to kill something in order to survive? Why create viruses, disease, brain-rotting fungus?

Forget about the evils of human societies (for which, apparently, we are the only ones who are responsible. Even if we have been created a certain - flawed - way by a supposedly all-loving father). Why should all life have to suffer, so horrifically? If you, Aliza, could create a world from scratch, would you create a world where cute little ladybugs are eaten by cute little birds which are eaten by cute little martens which are eaten by cute fluffy foxes and so on and so forth? And that is if they can actually find something cute and fluffy to eat and do not simply starve? Or get organ-devouring cancers? And if you wouldn't create such a world, how can you believe that something good created one such world?


I am genuinely interested - is it so hard to see that a world where suffering is pervasive and inherent is WRONG? (if we're talking about a consciously created world, of course)

[Szuchow]

Of course god can have it both ways, he's god. Isn't it convenient for him that if for example I chose to take a shortcut home and then accidentally got entangled in a combine harvester resulting in my death, he has a clean conscience.
Maybe this god character only meddles with things that have a happy ending?

When operation is successful patient family thanks god but when it fails they sue doctors.

[Szuchow]

I guess I just don't understand why, if we know people are suffering, would we blame G-d for that? We should be blaming ourselves. We're the ones in control. We're the ones who get to make the choices.

Why people blame god? Cause with great power comes great responsibility to use cheesy line. Or to strike bastard with scripture he allegedly inspired: To whom much is given, much will be required .

Privately I favor Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

To this day I'm yet to meet theists who would be capable of answering it with something other than inane, kindergarten grade apologia or incoherent blathering about shitty, meaningless concept called free will.

[Cavebear]

Cheap "playing it both ways".

Fate does not exist.

Yeah that's what I've been saying ya tool.

You said "or would I?". Question sometimes deserve answers.

[Aliza]

I guess I just don't understand why, if we know people are suffering, would we blame G-d for that? We should be blaming ourselves. We're the ones in control. We're the ones who get to make the choices.

Why would a benevolent god create a world where ALL life has to kill something in order to survive? Why create viruses, disease, brain-rotting fungus?

G-d is not benevolent.

[Szuchow]

I am genuinely interested - is it so hard to see that a world where suffering is pervasive and inherent is WRONG? (if we're talking about a consciously created world, of course)

It's something of a trick question I think. Believers will not question god as no matter what shit they spout about his supposed love, they "know" full well that hell awaits. Also how worshipping deity that created cruel, unjust and horrible world would reflect on them? For atheists it would be easy to see but they obviously don't think that world was created.

[rocinantexyz]

G-d [is not] benevolent.

Well at least that isn't the blatant contradiction most Christians present.

[Cavebear]

Well, since it's an atheist forum, I thought I'd share my religion's view on "fate" so it can be compared to Christianity's view.

In Judaism, we believe in 100% free will, but that doesn't mean G-d doesn't introduce elements to shape the outcome. Never-the-less, everything is 100% your choice. On the occasions that G-d steps in to shape the story of our lives, we must be offered a real choice. It can't be that G-d is forcing you to choose something to achieve a preferred outcome. That said, G-d knows what you'll choose, because from G-d's position outside of time, you already chose it.

The story of the universe is kind of like a Dungeon's and Dragon role-playing game, except the game has already run and someone recorded the entire game on their smartphone. We were all characters in the story, and we were tested and challenged along the way to create rich stories. The choices were always ours to make, but someone later watching the video of the story of our lives knows what choices we made. G-d is in both positions simultaneously; both manipulating the game as the dungeon master, and also watching the recording of the game. From the perspective of someone reading the story after the fact, it's fate that we chose one path instead of another because it was already chosen. But it's also free will.

How does that measure up against the Christian view?

You have got to be kidding. In one sentence you say "fate" and in the next you say "free will". Both cannot be.

As for the Jewish/Christian difference, I will have to leave that debate to them. I think they are both nutsos. And all the other theisms, to be fair. But Jews and Christians seem more like siblings who hate each other, which sometimes amuses me.

[Vera]

G-d is not benevolent.

So what is he? Malevolent? Indifferent? And what purpose does he serve, other than the creator of an all but sadistic world?

I mean, it's a better explanation for an obviously cruel, unjust world than a benevolent god creating everything and then excusing all the suffering away with some cockamamie story about an apple and a broad, but nowadays we actually have a pretty good explanation of how the world came to be, so what purpose does an indifferent god even serve to those who believe in him?

[Aliza]

G-d is not benevolent.

So what is he? Malevolent? Indifferent? And what purpose does he serve, other than the creator of an all but sadistic world?

I mean, it's a better explanation for an obviously cruel, unjust world than a benevolent god creating everything and then excusing all the suffering away with some cockamamie story about an apple and a broad, but nowadays we actually have a pretty good explanation of how the world came to be, so what purpose does an indifferent god even serve to those who believe in him?

I think the Jewish G-d is just different than the Christian deity that you're more familiar with. 

Imagine that you're on top of a cliff, and you could rightly choose to jump to your death. If you were to do that, would you expect that gravity would cease to function as it always has for your benefit? What if you could have worn protective gear in the event that you might fall, but you chose not to. Is it gravity's fault that you didn't take precautions? What if someone pushed you, against your will? Is gravity evil because you fell to your death? What if 10 people fell to their deaths before you, and no one chose to warn future visitors to the area that falls might occur. Is gravity to blame?

Gravity just is. You don't test it. You don't fuck with it. It's going to act in a predictable manner every time whether you like it or not. If you were really worried about it, you'd create some kind of anti gravity device to protect yourself and others against falls (or you'd fund someone who is working on this project). But you didn't, so you just accept that gravity isn't going to change for you and you deal with the consequences of gravity. Maybe you're even secretly grateful that gravity exists and as a result, we have a planet on which to live our lives. Or maybe you hate gravity and you're bitter because it keeps pulling people and our life-sustaining resources to the planet when you feel that we should be floating around in space (in which case you're faced with another choice.)

[Szuchow]

So what is he? Malevolent? Indifferent? And what purpose does he serve, other than the creator of an all but sadistic world?

I mean, it's a better explanation for an obviously cruel, unjust world than a benevolent god creating everything and then excusing all the suffering away with some cockamamie story about an apple and a broad, but nowadays we actually have a pretty good explanation of how the world came to be, so what purpose does an indifferent god even serve to those who believe in him?

I think the Jewish G-d is just different than the Christian deity that you're more familiar with. 

Imagine that you're on top of a cliff, and you could rightly choose to jump to your death. If you were to do that, would you expect that gravity would cease to function as it always has for your benefit? What if you could have worn protective gear in the event that you might fall, but you chose not to. Is it gravity's fault that you didn't take precautions? What if someone pushed you, against your will? Is gravity evil because you fell to your death? What if 10 people fell to their deaths before you, and no one chose to warn future visitors to the area that falls might occur. Is gravity to blame?

Gravity just is. You don't test it. You don't fuck with it. It's going to act in a predictable manner every time whether you like it or not. If you were really worried about it, you'd create some kind of anti gravity device to protect yourself and others against falls (or you'd fund someone who is working on this project). But you didn't, so you just accept that gravity isn't going to change for you and you deal with the consequences of gravity. Maybe you're even secretly grateful that gravity exists and as a result, we have a planet on which to live our lives. Or maybe you hate gravity and you're bitter because it keeps pulling people and our life-sustaining resources to the planet when you feel that we should be floating around in space (in which case you're faced with another choice.)

Comparison does not work as gravity is mindless and impersonal whereas god isn't. 

Let's be real here - if any single human would have power to stop genocides, world hunger, wars... and he wouldn't do it we would rightly called him scumbag to say it lightly. Why this mythical being called god escapes such fate? He who have the power to prevent evil and doesn't is malevolent himself.