Looking for criticism of some ideas

[jimhabegger]

One of my reasons that I told myself for wanting to read and post here again was because when I was here before, I learned some new ways of thinking that I really liked, and I thought maybe it could happen again. For example, I learned that I don't care whether or not there is any real or existing being corresponding to the word "God" in Christian and Baha'i scriptures. I do have an opinion and a feeling about it, which contradict each other, but I don't think that I need to know, for any of my purposes, and I've lost interest in trying to figure out what it could possibly mean to say that there is, or that there isn't. I also learned to think of what those scriptures say about God as a collection of analogies, and of the word "God" being used in different ways in different analogies.

The criticism I'm looking for now is not about that. It's okay with me if people want to criticize it, but that isn't what I'm looking for now. I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

[Cavebear]

One of my reasons that I told myself for wanting to read and post here again was because when I was here before, I learned some new ways of thinking that I really liked, and I thought maybe it could happen again. For example, I learned that I don't care whether or not there is any real or existing being corresponding to the word "God" in Christian and Baha'i scriptures. I do have an opinion and a feeling about it, which contradict each other, but I don't think that I need to know, for any of my purposes, and I've lost interest in trying to figure out what it could possibly mean to say that there is, or that there isn't. I also learned to think of what those scriptures say about God as a collection of analogies, and of the word "God" being used in different ways in different analogies.

The criticism I'm looking for now is not about that. It's okay with me if people want to criticize it, but that isn't what I'm looking for now. I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

There are many individual threads about those. Look around and find a subject you like. Join in the specific thread discussions...

"Again" does make me wonder a bit, though.

[Inkubus]

One of my reasons that I told myself for wanting to read and post here again was because when I was here before, I learned some new ways of thinking that I really liked, and I thought maybe it could happen again. For example, I learned that I don't care whether or not there is any real or existing being corresponding to the word "God" in Christian and Baha'i scriptures. I do have an opinion and a feeling about it, which contradict each other, but I don't think that I need to know, for any of my purposes, and I've lost interest in trying to figure out what it could possibly mean to say that there is, or that there isn't. I also learned to think of what those scriptures say about God as a collection of analogies, and of the word "God" being used in different ways in different analogies.

The criticism I'm looking for now is not about that. It's okay with me if people want to criticize it, but that isn't what I'm looking for now. I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

I have absolutely no idea what it is you're asking and it very much looks as though you don't either.

[Alan V]

I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

You can offer your ideas in a wide variety of conversations about such topics, as Cavebear mentioned, and forum members are not shy with criticisms.

Most people want improvements along those lines, but they disagree about specifics. 

As individuals we often seem helpless, and new problems arise before old ones are solved.  It's a constant but slow struggle in every courtroom.  It's frustrating.

The problem is basic human nature, which seems unalterable.  Injustice and oppression seem as inevitable as war because of the limitations of human nature.  

But trying to control other people beyond a point also leads to injustice and oppression, so there is a difficult-to-achieve balance involved.

[jimhabegger]

I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

There are many individual threads about those.  Look around and find a subject you like.  Join in the specific thread discussions...

Okay, thanks.

[jimhabegger]

"Again" does make me wonder a bit, though.

If you're thinking of Critic, no. Look at the join date in my profile.

[Alan V]

Many theists believe that since their God is perfect, He created a perfect world which was corrupted by humanity. They blame people for a lot more than we can control.

From a naturalistic perspective, all sorts of natural evils and "injustices" are built right into the nature of the world. That includes our evolved human nature to a fair extent.

So Jim, the first thing you might clarify is what you think about this. Do you believe the theistic view on oppression and injustice?

[jimhabegger]

Many theists believe that since their God is perfect, He created a perfect world which was corrupted by humanity.  They blame people for a lot more than we can control.

From a naturalistic perspective, all sorts of natural evils and "injustices" are built right into the nature of the world.  That includes our evolved human nature to a fair extent.  

So Jim, the first thing you might clarify is what you think about this.  Do you believe the theistic view on oppression and injustice?

I'm thinking of them as natural disasters, arising from human nature. One difference is that I'm thinking that maybe we'll never be able to stop earthquakes, hurricanes, wildfires or floods from ever happening, but maybe we will be able to do more to stop injustice and oppression disasters from happening. I'm not sure of either one. I'm not even sure we should try to stop natural disasters from ever happening. I do think that there will be progress in learning to reduce and counteract the damage. I'm planning to post some ideas about that, also.

[Dānu]

[c172]

I'm not even sure we should try to stop natural disasters from ever happening. I do think that there will be progress in learning to reduce and counteract the damage. I'm planning to post some ideas about that, also.

You mentioned injustice and oppression, too. As a vulnerable member of society (disability [spina bifida]), I need research to continue about how to reduce and counteract such damage. Disabled people are overlooked, ignored and/or manhandled in rescue situations. Indeed, some disaster types will never be completely abated, but research leads to evolution. Evolution in patient care. Evolution in occupational health and safety. Evolution in emergency management. Evolution is a good, and real, thing. 

Let's do our damned best if we as a society really do care about protecting ourselves fully.

[GenesisNemesis]

What are your ideas? Do you believe, for example, that belief in god is a requirement to fight oppression or injustice?

[Dancefortwo]

I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

Criticism is not on short supply on this forum.   Criticism is sort of our middle name.  LOL.

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

Criticism is not on short supply on this forum.   Criticism is sort of our middle name.  LOL.

Either we get criticized for not criticizing, or we get criticized for criticizing too much. Just can't win. 

[Dancefortwo]

I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

Criticism is not on short supply on this forum.   Criticism is sort of our middle name.  LOL.

Either we get criticized for not criticizing, or we get criticized for criticizing too much. Just can't win. 

The critical mass of our critical thinking is in critical condition.  Better operate ASAP.  

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm looking for criticism of my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and how to live the best lives we can, in the world as it is now.

Criticism is not on short supply on this forum.   Criticism is sort of our middle name.  LOL.

Well that's a dumb thing to say.

[jimhabegger]

What are your ideas?

I’m following Cavebear’s suggestion of looking for discussions of my topics that are already happening. I’m posting some ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression here:
A plea against bigotry
Now I’m looking for discussions about living the best life we can, in the world as it is today.

Do you believe, for example, that belief in god is a requirement to fight oppression or injustice?

No. Anyway, I’m opposed to fighting against injustices and oppression. Everything I see people doing, thinking that they’re fighting against injustices and oppression, no matter how good their intentions might be, looks to me like actually helping to perpetuate them and make them worse.

[jimhabegger]

I’m thinking now of approaching this from a different angle: Asking people what they’ve learned to do or what they’re trying to learn to do about injustices and oppression; and what they’ve learned to do or what they’re trying to learn to do, to live the best life they can, in the world as it is today.

[GenesisNemesis]

No. Anyway, I’m opposed to fighting against injustices and oppression. Everything I see people doing, thinking that they’re fighting against injustices and oppression, no matter how good their intentions might be, looks to me like actually helping to perpetuate them and make them worse.

Rather self-defeating. Then why are you trying to convince people to be opposed to fighting against injustices and oppression?

[airportkid]

... Asking people what they’ve learned to do about injustices ...

The problem with injustice is that what's injustice to Maxine is perfect justice to Max, largely because Maxine's concept of fairness and what should take priority will never coincide with Max's.  Worse, Maxine's concepts and values will change, as will Max's, so that even if they appear to converge the constant change will drive them apart again.  Most people regard "fairness" in terms of narrow personal benefit and disregard effects on others or on the society as a whole.  So getting a salary raise is "fair", having to pay more for a gallon of gas is "unfair".  Winning the bid in an auction is "fair"; being outbid is "unfair".  Etc.

I don't know that this is resolvable; it may just be an intrinsic characteristic of autonomous beings also being social beings.  At no point would it ever be possible for every single member of a society to agree that some event is universally "fair" - or "just".

[jimhabegger]

Then why are you trying to convince people to be opposed to fighting against injustices and oppression?

I’m not.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Everything I see people doing, thinking that they’re fighting against injustices and oppression, no matter how good their intentions might be, looks to me like actually helping to perpetuate them and make them worse.

"Everything"?

The overbroad scope of this statement has my bullshit detector rumbling. It seems fatuous and simplistic, with little thought behind it. Please justify this broad, sweeping claim. Would you mind giving specific examples of these instances? What attempts to address injustices do you oppose, and why?

Let me grab a chair. We're gonna be here a while.

Then why are you trying to convince people to be opposed to fighting against injustices and oppression?

I’m not.

Even though you believe every effort to fight those problems deepens them?

[GenesisNemesis]

Then why are you trying to convince people to be opposed to fighting against injustices and oppression?

I’m not.

I'm not sure what you're attempting to achieve then if you are truly concerned about reducing human suffering. Why wouldn't you be attempting to convince others that fighting against injustices and oppression is misguided?

[jimhabegger]

Everything I see people doing, thinking that they’re fighting against injustices and oppression, no matter how good their intentions might be, looks to me like actually helping to perpetuate them and make them worse.

The overbroad scope of this statement has my bullshit detector rumbling. It seems fatuous and simplistic, with little thought behind it.

It has years of thought, observation and research behind it. Note that I'm not saying everything that people are doing. Only everything that I've seen people doing, that's being promoted as fighting against injustices and oppression. i would be glad for people to tell me about examples of fighting against injustices and oppression, that they think are not actually helping to perpetuate them and make them worse.

If you want to know my reasons for saying that, first you would need to know what I think needs to happen, for the injustices and oppression to stop. That's part of what I'll be discussing in the thread A plea against bigotry.

[Dom]

This thread is very confusing. I'm not even sure what it's about.

[jimhabegger]

This thread is very confusing. I'm not even sure what it's about.

It might be about different things, for different people, and I changed horses in midstream. For me it's about learning new ways of thinking, like I did when I was reading and posting here a few years ago. When I started the thread, I was planning to post my ideas for what to do about injustices and oppression, and about living the best life we can in the world as it is today. I was hoping for people to criticize my ideas, because that's how I learned some new ways of thinking before. Then I decided to try a different approach, which will be to ask people what they've learned to do or what they're trying to learn to do, about injustices and oppression; and what they've learned to do or what they're trying to learn to do, to live the best life they can in the world as it is today. I'm not sure how well that will work for my purpose, but I've decided to try it. Only, I haven't actually started doing it yet. All I'm doing now in this thread is responding to some comments and questions.