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Where We Have Gone Wrong
#51

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 01:49 PM)Ausländer Wrote: Guns VS Archery: indeed it looks reasonable the question "why if bow&arrow was so fast people started to use fireweapons?", but it is wrongly posed question.
To make an archer it took several years of training to build up the strenght for the english longbow and on top of that archers were well paid.
To recruit a cheap peasant and to make him able to shoot with fireweapon was a matter of few weeks of training. On top of that fireweapon improved their technology and tactic quite quickly, just think before to the pike & shot (the spanish tercio) and then the "dutch discipline"

I would have said the same thing. Anyone can shoot a gun. Archery does take some skill. It was a close match for a while. But rapid machinery advanced beyond bows...
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#52

Where We Have Gone Wrong
Just some food for thought: when the middle age finished? Historians say either with Columbis 1492 or with Costantinopole fall.
I do prefer the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_...lden_Spurs
Why?
Because middle age meant that if you were born peasant you remained peasant, if you were born warrior you remained warrior, and war was a job and no "peasant" was allowed to take part in it.
Instead in the above mentioned battle for the first time in history a group of peasant self organized and via innovation (the weapon called goedendags) with few weeks of drill managed to disarray an army of professional heavy kneights
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#53

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:00 PM)Ausländer Wrote: Just some food for thought: when the middle age finished? Historians say either with Columbis 1492 or with Costantinopole fall.
I do prefer the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_...lden_Spurs
Why?
Because middle age meant that if you were born peasant you remained peasant, if you were born warrior you remained warrior, and war was a job and no "peasant" was allowed to take part in it.
Instead in the above mentioned battle for the first time in history a group of peasant self organized and via innovation (the weapon called goedendags) with few weeks of drill managed to disarray an army of professional heavy kneights

I can go with several definitions of when the Middle Ages ended. One would militarily at Agincourt. One would be when the Plague caused a labor shortage and set the serfs (relatively) free. Another would be the transition from human and animal labor to coal and steam. I would consider the distribution of printing press books, too for the spread of information in local languages.
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#54

Where We Have Gone Wrong
Indeed, it is impossible to find a single event for a slow transition, especialy in history.
Anyway to go back to the original questions: we as europeans and europeans derived just liked so much to busy ourselves in finding out more and more effective ways to kill each other, and fireweapons really were the game changer mainly for the time they take from 0 to fit enough to be on a battle field.
When we arrived in Japan, the japaneses quickly learnt the fireweapons from us and with their blacksmith were even improving as good as us or maybe even better/faster, but then stopped it for political decisions: they could not come to terms with the concept that it took a lifelong of training to become a japanese warrior and ever peasant instead with few week of training could kill a superbly trained samurai.
We europeans are just "too pragmatic" for many other cultures and this was one of the reason of our sucess. I read GGS and it is one of the very best book I have ever read and I agree with the thesis there
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#55

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(08-29-2020, 06:09 PM)Cavebear Wrote:  a bottle of cheap Zinfandel

I very rarely drink redwine, I am a white supremacist (9 out of 10 bottles I open for me are of whitewine), but when it comes to red what you call Zinfandel is the grape I prefer. In Italy is called primitivo and it is originally from the islands of Croatia, where it is called blue wine.
I do have a collection of bottles from 2004 of Zinfandel resting in my cellar, and also its blend Primitivo/sangiovese and primitivo/negroamaro as you find in Puglia are really great. Puglia has a climate similar to Napa valley and great primitivo are made there.
I also prefer what people are doing now: instead of aging in barrique the new trend is to use again the old amphorae from special clay: they let oxigen enter at the same rate as wooden barrique but no extra flavour from the wood is coming to the wine, thus you get slight oxidation from the oxigen of the tannins but no vanilla/wood bouquet and to my taste are better
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#56

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:22 PM)Ausländer Wrote: Indeed, it is impossible to find a single event for a slow transition, especialy in history.
Anyway to go back to the original questions: we as europeans and europeans derived just liked so much to busy ourselves in finding out more and more effective ways to kill each other, and fireweapons really were the game changer mainly for the time they take from 0 to fit enough to be on a battle field.
When we arrived in Japan, the japaneses quickly learnt the fireweapons from us and with their blacksmith were even improving as good as us or maybe even better/faster, but then stopped it for political decisions: they could come to terms with the concept that it took a lifelong of training to become a japanese warrior and ever peasant instead with few week of training could kill a superbly trained samurai.
We europeans are just "too pragmatic" for many other cultures and this was one of the reason of our sucess. I read GGS and it is one of the very best book I have ever read and I agree with the thesis there

Pragmatism has a very high success rate. Aside from that, some cultures have a great temporary explosion in adapting new ideas to warfare. The Chinese invented gunpowder, the Middle Easterners developed that into cannons, but the Europeans made gunns. Guess who won.

I don't mean in the least that there was any cultural superiority about it, just that some people see some possibilities others don't and it goes both ways. I think it is a bit random myself. Though warfare seems to have been rather stolidly traditional sometimes and not in others.
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#57

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:31 PM)Cavebear Wrote: Pragmatism has a very high success rate.  Aside from that, some cultures have a great temporary explosion in adapting new ideas to warfare.  The Chinese invented gunpowder, the Middle Easterners developed that into cannons, but the Europeans made gunns.  Guess who won.

I don't mean in the least that there was any cultural superiority about it, just that some people see some possibilities others don't and it goes both ways.  I think it is a bit random myself.  Though warfare seems to have been rather stolidly traditional sometimes and not in others.

The secret of the anciet romas was that: pragmatic and adopter of anything they found in their enemies that was superior to their equipments.
The only original roman weapon was the pilum, different from the javeline, because was manufactured to penerate the shield and then bend, so the shield needed to be discarded for imbalance and the opponents had to fight without shield. All the rest was adapted: the gladius from the celtibers, the helm from the greeks etc etc
It is the same in enterpreneurship: i divide enterpreneirs in the ones that recognize their competutors can do things better and are keen t learn from them and the ones they know already everything and they need no lesson. Try to guess which are the more successful in the long run...
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#58

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:28 PM)Ausländer Wrote:
(08-29-2020, 06:09 PM)Cavebear Wrote:  a bottle of cheap Zinfandel

I very rarely drink redwine, I am a white supremacist (9 out of 10 bottles I open for me are of whitewine), but when it comes to red what you call Zinfandel is the grape I prefer. In Italy is called primitivo and it is originally from the islands of Croatia, where it is called blue wine.
I do have a collection of bottles from 2004 of Zinfandel resting in my cellar, and also its blend Primitivo/sangiovese and primitivo/negroamaro as you find in Puglia are really great. Puglia has a climate similar to Napa valley and great primitivo are made there.
I also prefer what people are doing now: instead of aging in barrique the new trend is to use again the old amphorae from special clay: they let oxigen enter at the same rate as wooden barrique but no extra flavour from the wood is coming to the wine, thus you get slight oxidation from the oxigen of the tannins but no vanilla/wood bouquet and to my taste are better

I have a strong preference for old vine Zinfandel (hence "twisted vine")  I don't really know wine terms, but it seems spicier and smoother at the same time.  I enjoy it with almost everything, but it is suddenly unavailable locally.  Argh!

I should mention that I really like spicy dry whites with spicy chinese foods...
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#59

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:38 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I have a strong preference for old vine Zinfandel (hence "twisted vine")  I don't really know wine terms, but it seems spicier and smoother at the same time.  I enjoy it with almost everything, but it is suddenly unavailable locally.  Argh!

I should mention that I really like spicy dry whites with spicy chinese foods...

From this producer I always hadthe best primitivos, I think is available also in US
https://www.apolloniovini.it/en/wines/ap...ragnolo-2/
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#60

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:42 PM)Ausländer Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 02:38 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I have a strong preference for old vine Zinfandel (hence "twisted vine")  I don't really know wine terms, but it seems spicier and smoother at the same time.  I enjoy it with almost everything, but it is suddenly unavailable locally.  Argh!

I should mention that I really like spicy dry whites with spicy chinese foods...

From this producer I always hadthe best primitivos, I think is available also in US
https://www.apolloniovini.it/en/wines/ap...ragnolo-2/

Thank you but price matters. I won't drink wine that costs more than my food at home. I'm cheap. Twisted Wine Cellar Old Vine Zin costs $10 for a 1.5 liter bottle. Suits me just fine.
Theists disbelieve in all deities but one.  I just disbelieve in one less.
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#61

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:51 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 02:42 PM)Ausländer Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 02:38 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I have a strong preference for old vine Zinfandel (hence "twisted vine")  I don't really know wine terms, but it seems spicier and smoother at the same time.  I enjoy it with almost everything, but it is suddenly unavailable locally.  Argh!

I should mention that I really like spicy dry whites with spicy chinese foods...

From this producer I always hadthe best primitivos, I think is available also in US
https://www.apolloniovini.it/en/wines/ap...ragnolo-2/

Thank you but price matters.  I won't drink wine that costs more than my food at home.  I'm cheap.  Twisted Wine Cellar Old Vine Zin costs $10 for a 1.5 liter bottle.  Suits me just fine.

I am "maximus stingirus", the son of a scottishman and a stuttgarterwoman raised up in a jewish institution is a lavish person compared to me, but for wine I make a little of exception, I can spend up to 10€/bottle by the producer, no more, since if you spend more you just spend for the brand and not anymore about production cost (I am very much aware of how the breakdown of wine production costs are)
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#62

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 02:54 PM)Ausländer Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 02:51 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 02:42 PM)Ausländer Wrote: From this producer I always hadthe best primitivos, I think is available also in US
https://www.apolloniovini.it/en/wines/ap...ragnolo-2/

Thank you but price matters.  I won't drink wine that costs more than my food at home.  I'm cheap.  Twisted Wine Cellar Old Vine Zin costs $10 for a 1.5 liter bottle.  Suits me just fine.

I am "maximus stingirus", the son of a scottishman and a stuttgarterwoman raised up in a jewish institution is a lavish person compared to me, but for wine I make a little of exception, I can spend up to 10€/bottle by the producer, no more, since if you spend more you just spend for the brand and not anymore about production cost (I am very much aware of how the breakdown of wine production costs are)

You mean a .75l bottle, right? Still, I would be interested in any brand name in that price range to check out at the local wine. store.
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#63

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 03:02 PM)Cavebear Wrote: You mean a .75l bottle, right?  Still, I would be interested in any brand name in that price range to check out at the local wine.   store.

I do not have much experience with US wine prices at the wineshop, but if your wineshop has an online catalogue just send me the link and I will see what I can suggest you
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#64

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-05-2020, 08:14 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(09-05-2020, 01:32 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: ... The standard for being considered an "expert archer" was to have three arrows IN THE AIR at the same time ...

Poor standard.  Seems to me a better standard is two arrows embedded in the intended target and a third enroute for every three released.  Lots of arrows aloft is not as good as making most arrows puncture targets.

You've never been on the receiving end of an arrow cloud then. The lads were shoot at massed men tight together. And seeing the incoming sky full of arrows has a bit of a psychological impact.

But I'll give you that they were required to aim in the general direction of the enemy instead of just squirreling shots off hither and yon.
  [Image: pirates.gif] Dog  
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#65

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 04:37 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(09-05-2020, 08:14 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(09-05-2020, 01:32 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: ... The standard for being considered an "expert archer" was to have three arrows IN THE AIR at the same time ...

Poor standard.  Seems to me a better standard is two arrows embedded in the intended target and a third enroute for every three released.  Lots of arrows aloft is not as good as making most arrows puncture targets.

You've never been on the receiving end of an arrow cloud then. The lads were shoot at massed men tight together. And seeing the incoming sky full of arrows has a bit of a psychological impact.

But I'll give you that they were required to aim in the general direction of the enemy instead of just squirreling shots off hither and yon.

Reminds me of something I read once about American Indians teaching their teenagers to be observant in warfare. There would be 2 lines of bowmen (bowboys?) and the object was to hit an opposing line person (with a blunt-tipped arrow - it was training). One good trick was to fire a couple of arrows high to make the other side watch and dodge and then shoot one fast and straight while they were distracted.
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#66

Where We Have Gone Wrong
Too complicated for Continental warfare.
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#67

Where We Have Gone Wrong
Quote:The original British ship that arrived limping and possibly barely afloat in Jamestown in 1619 was carrying African slaves.

You have to watch the north-American cultural bias, C/B.  The Spanish and Portuguese were importing slaves to Brazil and Santo Domingo since 1501.  In those colonies the main export was sugar.  Now sugar had almost as detrimental an effect on Europeans as tobacco.  Not too long ago I saw a special on an excavation of the main British Naval Hospital graveyard and one of the more fascinating points was that the archaeologists could tell the officers from the enlisted men because the officers, generally being wealthier, had rotten teeth presumably from the effect of sugar.

Then there was also Montezuma's Revenge!
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#68

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 05:28 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Too complicated for Continental warfare.

Exactly. The american natives had a completely different warfare, "Mann gegen Mann" (one VS one) was more important, sice they were few. We as europeans were more used to drill, drill and drill to get discipline and order on the battlefield, because we knew as single we were inferior to a well fed, trained native that knew the terrain, but in a open field European style the natives had no chances already vs our steal blades, not to mention when we got breechload rifles/revolvers.

COming back to the archery: the longbow was an example, and as you pointed out clearly it was more the mere tactic of having hundreds of arrows raining down and they landed few centmeters from each other and they were heavy, often cound even puncture helms etc
There were also the Genoa crossbowmen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoese_crossbowmen) organized in team of 3 persons: one was reloading, one shootng and the other one keeping a large shield to defend them, but englishlongbowmen were more versatile with their parabolic shoot

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#69

Where We Have Gone Wrong
sorrym mistake in editing
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#70

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 05:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:The original British ship that arrived limping and possibly barely afloat in Jamestown in 1619 was carrying African slaves.

You have to watch the north-American cultural bias, C/B.  The Spanish and Portuguese were importing slaves to Brazil and Santo Domingo since 1501.  In those colonies the main export was sugar.  Now sugar had almost as detrimental an effect on Europeans as tobacco.  Not too long ago I saw a special on an excavation of the main British Naval Hospital graveyard and one of the more fascinating points was that the archaeologists could tell the officers from the enlisted men because the officers, generally being wealthier, had rotten teeth presumably from the effect of sugar.

Then there was also Montezuma's Revenge!

I know that. Most African slaves worked on Spanish sugar cane plantations south of the US. But I was discussing how African slavery in the US started.
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#71

Where We Have Gone Wrong
Oh, but that's easy.  The Brits stole a century old idea and made it work for them.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#72

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 07:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Oh, but that's easy.  The Brits stole a century old idea and made it work for them.

Wikipedia:

"The history of slavery spans many cultures, nationalities, and religions from ancient times to the present day. However, the social, economic, and legal positions of slaves have differed vastly in different systems of slavery in different times and places.[1]

Slavery occurs relatively rarely among hunter-gatherer populations[2] because it develops under conditions of social stratification.[3] Slavery operated in the first civilizations (such as Sumer in Mesopotamia,[4] which dates back as far as 3500 BC). Slavery features in the Mesopotamian Code of Hammurabi (c. 1860 BCE), which refers to it as an established institution.[5] Slavery was widespread in the ancient world found in almost every other ancient civilization such as the Roman Empire. It became less common throughout Europe during the Early Middle Ages, although it continued to be practiced in some areas. The Byzantine–Ottoman wars (1265–1479) and the Ottoman wars in Europe (14th to 20th centuries) resulted in the capture of large numbers of Christian slaves. The Arab slave trade encompassed mainly Western and Central Asia, Northern and Eastern Africa, India, and Europe from the 7th to the 20th century. The Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese, British and a number of West African kingdoms played a prominent role in the Atlantic slave trade, especially after 1600. "

Any further questions?
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#73

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-06-2020, 11:42 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I think a big part of the early impact of firearms was not the deadliness, but the "bang!" that was a new experience for many men-at-arms on the other end. "Shock and awe" is not a new approach to warfare...

When the English landed at Kurnell near Sydney, the mere discharge of a firearm was enough to
send the Aboriginals—who approached the invaders with spears—running fearfully back into the
protective scrubland.  They thought the sailors were some sort of "gods" sent to wreak havoc on
them.  Which, unfortunately, proved to be all too true in the shorter term.

Interestingly, when the Police Commissioner of Western Australia ordered gun shops to be closed
in March, he created an exemption to allow gun shop owners to open their doors to Aboriginal people
to satisfy their sanctioned entitlement to hunt over particular land and waters.

—So now we have the Aboriginals buying guns and ammo, but the whitey can't.  Ironic turn-about?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#74

Where We Have Gone Wrong
(09-07-2020, 11:01 PM)SYZ Wrote: Interestingly, when the Police Commissioner of Western Australia ordered gun shops to be closed
in March, he created an exemption to allow gun shop owners to open their doors to Aboriginal people
to satisfy their sanctioned entitlement to hunt over particular land and waters.

—So now we have the Aboriginals buying guns and ammo, but the whitey can't.  Ironic turn-about?

How does it feel to stay on the other side of the apartheid? Chuckle 
Just joking, anyway the aboriginal integration problem exist and it cannot be neglected, many wrong have been made in the past and let´s hope that the future brings better integration.
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#75

Where We Have Gone Wrong
Quote:Any further questions?


It's not a dissertation on slavery but on the origins of the Triangular Trade which, again, had the native Americans shown any resistance to European diseases would not have been necessary in the first place.  Think about the current social issues which have flowed from that.
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