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Does the soul exist?

Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 06:49 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 04:27 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-13-2020, 08:19 PM)possibletarian Wrote: No I asked a question, how does god know ?  My question has nothing to do with free will.

Does he calculate or not ?

Calculate is not quite right. He saw every possible world play out in one single impression, prior to creating this one. The outcome of that was to know all counterfactual truths (if it were the case that P, then it is the case Q).

He chose one (that met his goals), and then actualized it.

So we're back to 'he just knew' ? what is the difference between that and seeing the future

And how did he 'see' them play out without calculating ?

Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.
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Does the soul exist?
I argue that these apparent conflicts are merely apparent. There is no real conflict between theistic religion
and the scientific theory of evolution. What there is, instead, is conflict between theistic religion and a philosophical
gloss or add-on to the scientific doctrine of evolution: the claim that evolution is undirected , unguided, unorchestrated by God (or anyone else).

Alvin Plantinga "Where The Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, And Naturalism" Page 15

Just so we know what this whole argument is about. Viruses, parasites, bacteria, funguses, who guided the evolution of these?


...
But in fact, I will argue, there is no such conflict between Christian belief and science, while there is
conflict between naturalism and science.

Alvin Plantinga page 16
In the beginning was the misteak.
Book of Erors 1:1


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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 08:37 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 06:49 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 04:27 PM)SteveII Wrote: Calculate is not quite right. He saw every possible world play out in one single impression, prior to creating this one. The outcome of that was to know all counterfactual truths (if it were the case that P, then it is the case Q).

He chose one (that met his goals), and then actualized it.

So we're back to 'he just knew' ? what is the difference between that and seeing the future

And how did he 'see' them play out without calculating ?

Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.

All truths would have to include anything in the future would it not in your scenario ?

Omniscience: the state of knowing everything. But if the future does not exist, it cannot be known, without determinism.
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 08:35 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 06:52 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 04:44 PM)SteveII Wrote: The brain isn't an explanation in the same way that soul it.  On your view naturalism is the explanation for consciousness. I'm not sure that helps you because giving a naturalistic explanation for consciousness has been tricky to date.

Again, I don't add 'soul' as an explanation of consciousness. I add it for other reasons. It is just a side benefit that it also is an explanation.

There is no evidence that a consciousness exist  as a separate entity so why add a extra to it.
Do you have any evidence at all that we can bring to an 'extra' to the brain ?

We are not even sure how consciousness works let alone explain how it came to be. Sure their are theories--but what happens is the more thorough a theory is, the more metaphysical claims it must make.

We don't have to explain how it works , or even where it comes from. But we do know we have never observed it in action outside the brain, that does not give a reason to just add the supernatural.

We say simply 'we don't know' don't just add stuff
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 06:23 PM)SteveII Wrote: What is necessary? Only enough to understand the context and become a Christian.

Jesus is divine, blameless.
Man's condition is corrupted, in need of repair, and doesn't end well if you fail to repair it
God desires the repair
The way to repair has been provide by the cross
The repair is free but requires a confession of the above and a commitment to the future to live as Jesus commanded
That as a result, you can seek a personal relationship with God
It is the only way
Live eternally in heaven

That's not to say other doctrines are not important to hash out.

Drawing conclusions from doctrinal differences doesn't get you what you seem to think it does. The Holy Spirit does not promise to make technical systematic theology obvious. While I don't know of any specific claims, if someone says the spirit told them this doctrine is right over another, I would be hugely skeptical and wouldn't put any weight on it.

The reasons for denominations include culture, government structure, geography, service structure, music, minor doctrinal differences and major doctrinal differences. I would say there are only 3-4 divisions along major doctrinal differences in a narrow band of topics.

You provide a list of unsupported assertions.  If you believe them, fine.

You have made no real argument why anyone else should.  So, what is your point? Consider
Philosophy is about asking questions.
Science is about answering questions.
Theology is about avoiding questions.
The following 2 users Like Chas's post:
  • brunumb, Phaedrus
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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 06:23 PM)SteveII Wrote: The repair is free but requires a confession of the above and a commitment to the future to live as Jesus commanded

Having a requirement contradicts the meaning of free.
No gods necessary
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Does the soul exist?
[quote="SteveII" pid='185271' dateline='1581704586']
Quote:The reasons for denominations include culture, government structure, geography, service structure, music, minor doctrinal differences and major doctrinal differences. I would say there are only 3-4 divisions along major doctrinal differences in a narrow band of topics.

Bullshit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
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Does the soul exist?
SteveII Wrote:What is necessary? Only enough to understand the context and become a Christian.

Jesus is divine, blameless.
Man's condition is corrupted, in need of repair, and doesn't end well if you fail to repair it
God desires the repair
The way to repair has been provide by the cross
The repair is free but requires a confession of the above and a commitment to the future to live as Jesus commanded
That as a result, you can seek a personal relationship with God
It is the only way
Live eternally in heaven

This is truly bizarre.  Given that poor old Steve simply repeats versions of this bullshit over and over makes me
think he's not even reading our responses, and if he is, then he's not comprehending them.  Each of the above
statements is either totally erroneous, nonsensical, unevidenced, or wishful thinking.  And they're all based on a
sort of chain of non sequiturs—each link blindly building on the one preceding it.  It's actually quite funny to watch.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 10:02 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 08:37 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 06:49 PM)possibletarian Wrote: So we're back to 'he just knew' ? what is the difference between that and seeing the future

And how did he 'see' them play out without calculating ?

Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.

All truths would have to include anything in the future would it not in your scenario ?

Omniscience: the state of knowing everything. But if the future does not exist, it cannot be known, without determinism.

Once again, there are various theological hypotheses about how god is omniscient.  Either the Universe is determinate and god can know the future by being able to see the future, or calculate that from the universe's determinancy.  Or God creates the future in all detail, and knows what he intends to create. A different kind of determinancy. The view God does not do either is a minority view adopted by Process theology and open theology, and not a popular theological stance.

It is interesting to see Plantinga's adoption of Calvin's claim of Sensus Divinatus, but avoid debating the issue of Calvin's Providence of God, God creates the universe happening the way it does in all detail, including all moral evil in this Universe.
In the beginning was the misteak.
Book of Erors 1:1


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Does the soul exist?
(02-15-2020, 12:09 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 10:02 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 08:37 PM)SteveII Wrote: Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.

All truths would have to include anything in the future would it not in your scenario ?

Omniscience: the state of knowing everything. But if the future does not exist, it cannot be known, without determinism.

Once again, there are various theological hypotheses about how god is omniscient.  Either the Universe is determinate and god can know the future by being able to see the future, or calculate that from the universe's determinancy.  Or God creates the future in all detail, and knows what he intends to create. A different kind of determinancy.  The view God does not do either is a minority view adopted by Process theology and open theology, and not a popular theological stance.

It is interesting to see Plantinga's adoption of Calvin's claim of Sensus Divinatus, but avoid debating the issue of Calvin's Providence of God, God creates the universe happening the way it does in all detail, including all moral evil in this Universe.

It's amazing what twist and turns of theology people get in to, they of course have the advantage in appealing to what is essentially a magical being who can do anything, the possibilities are endless and only limited by mans imagination.
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 10:02 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 08:37 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 06:49 PM)possibletarian Wrote: So we're back to 'he just knew' ? what is the difference between that and seeing the future

And how did he 'see' them play out without calculating ?

Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.

All truths would have to include anything in the future would it not in your scenario ?

No, future events are not true propositions. It does not exist.

Quote:Omniscience: the state of knowing everything. But if the future does not exist, it cannot be known, without determinism.

OR middle knowledge. Can you explain back to me what middle knowledge is? I'm not sure you understand what I am saying.
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Does the soul exist?
(02-15-2020, 11:33 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 10:02 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 08:37 PM)SteveII Wrote: Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.

All truths would have to include anything in the future would it not in your scenario ?

No, future events are not true propositions. It does not exist.

Quote:Omniscience: the state of knowing everything. But if the future does not exist, it cannot be known, without determinism.

OR middle knowledge. Can you explain back to me what middle knowledge is? I'm not sure you understand what I am saying.

Tell you what, why don't you explain it to me, in your own words, then tell me how it applies to your claim ?

Bear in mind I am simply asking how God knows a future that does not exist ?  How does god gain that knowledge ?

Then tell me why you believe it to be true ?
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
Middle knowledge in the claim God would know what any "of what free creatures would do if they were instantiated (via middle knowledge)" IEP - Middle Knowledge.

As I pointed out earlier, if God is said to be essentially omniscient and creates any actualized world, God would know what that world would be like at any given point depending on what choice God made for an initial state of his creation. Any such world is essentially deterministic.

God would know that and so would know any possible world could only be actualized if God chose an initial state of creation, from which all would inevitably unfold.

There is also the problem of how god is omniscient. Is the Universe determinate and God can calculate the future state of the Universe because God can calculate that as per Laplace's demon? Or as per John Calvin and others, does God will what happens to happen and knows his own will? Providence. Islam, Inshallah, "If God wills it".
Or is God's omniscience just some mystery attribute we cannot hope to understand? Then the universe is determinate because God can forsee the future.
Or is God outside of time, creates all as it is and see all as One Big Now? The Universe is again, determinate.

There are so many holes and problems in this Middle Knowledge claim I cannot, for one take it seriously. And there is once again, the problem of evidence, proof that this claim is in any way true. It is merely a bad hypothesis. More loose threads hanging off of this hypothesis than a cheap Walmart sweater.
In the beginning was the misteak.
Book of Erors 1:1


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Does the soul exist?
(02-15-2020, 11:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: No, future events are not true propositions. It does not exist. 

Actually it does. I knew you were ignorant of Relativity.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 12:35 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: Middle knowledge in the claim God would know what any "of what free creatures would do if they were instantiated (via middle knowledge)"  IEP - Middle Knowledge.

As I pointed out earlier, if God is said to be essentially omniscient and creates any actualized world, God would know what that world would be like at any given point depending on what choice God made for an initial state of his creation. Any such world is essentially deterministic.

No, it's not. Deterministic specifically precludes (by definition) free will. Middle knowledge obviously allows for free will. One cannot be "essentially" the other. You are using the term wrong to prove the concept wrong.

Quote:God would know that and so would know any possible world could only be actualized if God chose an initial state of creation, from which all would inevitably unfold.

There is also the problem of how god is omniscient.  Is the Universe determinate and God can calculate the future state of the Universe because God can calculate that as per Laplace's demon?  Or as per John Calvin and others, does God will what happens to happen and knows his own will?  Providence.  Islam, Inshallah, "If God wills it".
Or is God's omniscience just some mystery attribute we cannot hope to understand?  Then the universe is determinate because God can forsee the future.
Or is God outside of time, creates all as it is and see all as One Big Now?  The Universe is again, determinate.

You are confusing two topics. 1) God's omniscience and 2) God's knowledge of future events. The first does not necessarily get you the second so they are not the same.

Omniscience is usually defined as knowing all true statements or propositions (including counterfactuals) that are logically possible to know and not believing any false ones.

How God knows the future is what we are discussing.


There are so many holes and problems in this Middle Knowledge claim I cannot, for one take it seriously.  And there is once again, the problem of evidence, proof that this claim is in any way true.  It is merely a bad hypothesis.  More loose threads hanging off of this hypothesis than a cheap Walmart sweater.

The holes are of your own making. It's not a difficult concept. It is concise, defensible, and most importantly it solves the conflict of God's knowledge of the future with free will.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 12:23 AM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-15-2020, 11:33 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 10:02 PM)possibletarian Wrote: All truths would have to include anything in the future would it not in your scenario ?

No, future events are not true propositions. It does not exist.

Quote:Omniscience: the state of knowing everything. But if the future does not exist, it cannot be known, without determinism.

OR middle knowledge. Can you explain back to me what middle knowledge is? I'm not sure you understand what I am saying.

Tell you what, why don't you explain it to me, in your own words, then tell me how it applies to your claim ?

Bear in mind I am simply asking how God knows a future that does not exist ?  How does god gain that knowledge ?

Then tell me why you believe it to be true ?

I edited some of what I wrote earlier:

The doctrine (molinism) from the beginning:

In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him. He predicted every action and reaction at this point. His knowledge comes from before he actualized the world we have. This is called middle knowledge.

He actualized the world.

It will play out as he predicted. It cannot be any other way. In that sense, and only from that perspective of inside the mind of God is the world determined.

That does not mean we do not have free will (which was the entire point of this series of posts). It is compatible because of HOW God knows what will happen. We still choose our actions.

So, the world is determined only from God's perspective because of his knowledge of future true propositions. This isn't deterministic because that, by definition, does not allow for free will. So, determinism cannot be true in a world were we have genuine choices.

---

Say God does not have middle knowledge and actualized this world anyway. It would be NO different. The same exact world cannot be deterministic and not deterministic.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: The doctrine (molinism) from the beginning:

In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him. He predicted every action and reaction at this point. His knowledge comes from before he actualized the world we have. This is called middle knowledge.

Okay i think we are getting closer to the question i was asking, by what mechanism does god 'play out' all possible worlds ?
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
(Yesterday, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him.
(My bold)
And this is the best world he could come up with?  Yeah, right.   Shake
No gods necessary
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Does the soul exist?
(02-14-2020, 08:37 PM)SteveII Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 06:49 PM)possibletarian Wrote:
(02-14-2020, 04:27 PM)SteveII Wrote: Calculate is not quite right. He saw every possible world play out in one single impression, prior to creating this one. The outcome of that was to know all counterfactual truths (if it were the case that P, then it is the case Q).

He chose one (that met his goals), and then actualized it.

So we're back to 'he just knew' ? what is the difference between that and seeing the future

And how did he 'see' them play out without calculating ?

Because "seeing the future" requires the future to exist.

Omniscience means there is no calculation involved. All truths are available to know at once.

LMAO --  SO then, L'il Stevie Weavie went to Theology Refresher, and someone set him straight. 
Predictions ARE a calculation. Now he's seen the error of his ways. He changed his tune. LOLOL
Actually he still has it partly wrong. He still needs to go to Theology Refresher and Biola Make Up Day.
Omniscience also means it knows what are not true, and what are false also. Omni---(hint)=ALL
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Does the soul exist?
(4 hours ago)brunumb Wrote:
(Yesterday, 02:33 PM)SteveII Wrote: In one single intuition, God played out all possible worlds of free humans--including counterfactuals of our actions and his actions/responses to see which world would bring about the most people genuinely seeking after him.
(My bold)
And this is the best world he could come up with?  Yeah, right.   Shake

Yes, it's definitely an eye-roll moment, and raises way more questions than it could possibly answer.

Why humans ?
Why not another universe where the elements and atoms are different, god could assumedly create infinite alternate universes with very different conditions and make up ?
Why the flesh or material at all ?
Why does an 'all' everything god want company anyway ? (it seems to be a very human need)

An so yes if this is the best possible world an all powerful all knowing (so on and so forth) god can up with, then it's disappointing.

The possibilities really are infinite unless you limit it in some way, which is where we get our unjustified  ''possible worlds of free humans'', to me focusing on detail at this level means they overlook how absurd, laughable  and weak the big picture is.
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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Does the soul exist?
And the fact that there is nothing perfect about us means us being a creation of intelligent design is even that more laughable.
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Does the soul exist?
(1 hour ago)Phaedrus Wrote: And the fact that there is nothing perfect about us means us being a creation of intelligent design is even that more laughable.

Almost as if.........
Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid.
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