Jesus' Mission....

[Alan V]

When I was in my early twenties, my great-grandma was in a nursing home for several years with severe dementia. Meaning: didn't know any of us family, and was very disoriented.

I used to visit a few time a month and feed her ice cream. During what turned out to be our last visit, she stopped
me, called me by name and asked about her husband who she called by name. She went on to say he had died, which
he had 3 months earlier. She said she would die soon and her relatives would be there to meet her. She also said she
would be there to meet me in my end! After that she went back into her severe dementia state! She died a few days later.

When my mother-in-law was suffering from dementia and prone to fits to the point where she was impossible to handle in her own home, we took her by ambulance to a hospital. She was diagnosed by a doctor and then transferred to a hospice.  She died just a few weeks later, but did have one afternoon of lucidity again.  She asked to see her lawyer, since she was so sure nothing was wrong with her that she thought we were holding her against her will.  She wanted to go home again.

[OakTree500]

Nursing? I have a question for you.... As it relates to spirituality, and personal experience.

When I was in my early twenties, my great-grandma was in a nursing home for several years with severe dementia. Meaning: didn't know any of us family, and was very disoriented.

I used to visit a few time a month and feed her ice cream. During what turned out to be our last visit, she stopped
me, called me by name and asked about her husband who she called by name. She went on to say he had died, which
he had 3 months earlier. She said she would die soon and her relatives would be there to meet her. She also said she
would be there to meet me in my end! After that she went back into her severe dementia state! She died a few days later.

I was taken by surprised and scared at the time. A few of my relatives laughed and even didn't believe me. So, I
never really thought or talked about it much until I became more spiritual. I've read about "moments of clarity", and a lot of them have to do with spiritual experiences. Your take? From a professional pov? Have you heard or experienced anything like this?

This is one of many personal spiritual experiences that I've had over the years. They can be dismissed or explored. And that
seems to be the difference between the believer, and the non. I've come to the conclusion that IF we want answers, we will find them. We just need to be open, and actually ask and look. On the other hand, these experiences can be ignored because there is no physical, or logical explanation for them.

Ultimately, none will convince the hardcore atheist of even a "reason" for God. Which has baffled me. Agnostics seem a better choice than just flat out rebellion. And rebellion is the right portrayal. Just look around.

While not related to diseases of the mind, this reminded me of this:
[it is a big long, but the story involved is similar, and the song is great]



The problem with a lot of this stuff is that its so vague, like "spiritual" - what does that specifically mean?, why doesn't it happen to everybody?, why is it open to such huge interpretation? [Mainly that something you say is spiritual, might not be somebody elses spiritual experience?] and so on.

Re dementia : My wifes nan had this and towards the end completely forgot almost everybody, yet from time to time would have 'clarity' and remember certain people/events and so on, it's really not uncommon. Her death came about because she outright chose to stop eating - whether it was knowingly or subconsciously or whatever, she knew that she was pretty much done, and just stopped. Her husband had died many years ago, and she was just tired of living life the way she had. I don't think people 100% know they are going to die, but I imagine there is something biologically that makes you reflect upon it at some point - plus the flip side is, ultimately there is no direct correlation for this either. For example: your great grans moment of clarity was, to most likely, remember people in her life but also her age generally, and to say she was going to die soon would more likely be a general statement that isn't out of the ordinary for people of the older generation. Either that or she may have been partly aware of her surroundings/circumstance. Even then, as we have no way of knowing, that has no direct link to if there is a god/afterlife and all of that side of things as well.

Plus THEN you have the old "why is your god THE god, why is it a particular version of the many gods from throughout the world and it's history, before and SINCE christianity" and all the usual stuff that comes with making claims that not only your god exists in any sort of format but why you think it influences your life over many others, including those that live/die on daily basis starving to death/dying of illness/etc - let alone those of us that say "I don't have enough evidence for your god, if only your god would prove it's own existence to me personally or literally any other atheist in the world at any time, EVER.".

Personal anecdotes/feelings/definitions are not evidence of anything, unfortunately.

[adey67]

Nursing? I have a question for you.... As it relates to spirituality, and personal experience.

When I was in my early twenties, my great-grandma was in a nursing home for several years with severe dementia. Meaning: didn't know any of us family, and was very disoriented.

I used to visit a few time a month and feed her ice cream. During what turned out to be our last visit, she stopped
me, called me by name and asked about her husband who she called by name. She went on to say he had died, which
he had 3 months earlier. She said she would die soon and her relatives would be there to meet her. She also said she
would be there to meet me in my end! After that she went back into her severe dementia state! She died a few days later.

I was taken by surprised and scared at the time. A few of my relatives laughed and even didn't believe me. So, I
never really thought or talked about it much until I became more spiritual. I've read about "moments of clarity", and a lot of them have to do with spiritual experiences. Your take? From a professional pov? Have you heard or experienced anything like this?

This is one of many personal spiritual experiences that I've had over the years. They can be dismissed or explored. And that
seems to be the difference between the believer, and the non. I've come to the conclusion that IF we want answers, we will find them. We just need to be open, and actually ask and look. On the other hand, these experiences can be ignored because there is no physical, or logical explanation for them.

Ultimately, none will convince the hardcore atheist of even a "reason" for God. Which has baffled me. Agnostics seem a better choice than just flat out rebellion. And rebellion is the right portrayal. Just look around.

While not related to diseases of the mind, this reminded me of this:
[it is a big long, but the story involved is similar, and the song is great]



The problem with a lot of this stuff is that its so vague, like "spiritual" - what does that specifically mean?, why doesn't it happen to everybody?, why is it open to such huge interpretation? [Mainly that something you say is spiritual, might not be somebody elses spiritual experience?] and so on.

Re dementia : My wifes nan had this and towards the end completely forgot almost everybody, yet from time to time would have 'clarity' and remember certain people/events and so on, it's really not uncommon. Her death came about because she outright chose to stop eating - whether it was knowingly or subconsciously or whatever, she knew that she was pretty much done, and just stopped. Her husband had died many years ago, and she was just tired of living life the way she had. I don't think people 100% know they are going to die, but I imagine there is something biologically that makes you reflect upon it at some point - plus the flip side is, ultimately there is no direct correlation for this either. For example: your great grans moment of clarity was, to most likely, remember people in her life but also her age generally, and to say she was going to die soon would more likely be a general statement that isn't out of the ordinary for people of the older generation. Either that or she may have been partly aware of her surroundings/circumstance. Even then, as we have no way of knowing, that has no direct link to if there is a god/afterlife and all of that side of things as well.

Plus THEN you have the old "why is your god THE god, why is it a particular version of the many gods from throughout the world and it's history, before and SINCE christianity" and all the usual stuff that comes with making claims that not only your god exists in any sort of format but why you think it influences your life over many others, including those that live/die on daily basis starving to death/dying of illness/etc - let alone those of us that say "I don't have enough evidence for your god, if only your god would prove it's own existence to me personally or literally any other atheist in the world at any time, EVER.".

Personal anecdotes/feelings/definitions are not evidence of anything, unfortunately.

Exactly the same thing with my dad he stopped eating and eventually drinking as well, he didn't last long after that.

[mordant]

Re dementia : My wifes nan had this and towards the end completely forgot almost everybody, yet from time to time would have 'clarity' and remember certain people/events and so on, it's really not uncommon.

It is also quite common for people without dementia, but who are suffering terminal illness and are slipping (whether because of morphine or just their body shutting down) in and out of lucidity, but mostly out, to "rally" briefly near the end, not necessarily just mentally, but also even physically.

My oldest brother died of a freak bone cancer (unusual type, plus he had never smoked or was otherwise at risk, though he had made a living delivering welding gasses to factories) and the day before he died he suddenly wanted to get out of bed and walk around and so forth (he couldn't, as the tumor hanging off the side of his leg was the size of a grapefruit and the leg would have broken again if he had been allowed to try it). He settled for a final, semi-lucid conversation with his wife, before going back to "sleep" for the last time.

These events are striking by contrast with the seeming unreachable nature of the coma-like state and may be accompanied with a shocking (by contrast) sort of hyper-lucidity that is nevertheless disconnected from the true situation they are in, and may be accompanied by various flights of fancy that include / incorporate their religious ideation. They may claim they see or hear dead relatives, etc. This is what you would expect from someone in such a fugue state, and does not require actual afterlife visitations to explain it. People are attached to their ideas, even in death. That doesn't make their ideas right or their epistemology suddenly valid.

This is among the basic things they teach hospice volunteers / workers (I used to be one). It is expected and normal. But people superimpose their hopes and beliefs and presuppositions on it, and claim it as "proof" of those things. Like scripture, or other types of personal experience, it is a claim, not evidence. At least these experiences aren't just in between the beholder's ears, and can be attested to by others who may be present. But it does not automatically justify their chosen interpretation, either.

Similar thing happened when my stepson dragged us to a ghost adventures type of experience. Certain things happened, and I noted with great interest that Christians interpreted those happenings as evidence of the Christian afterlife, spiritualists interpreted it as confirmation of their particular but very different beliefs, the religiously indifferent usually fell back on some more general, Christian-slanted pattern-match, and so forth. And I, as apparently the lone skeptic (well my wife and stepson are actually skeptics, too, and just treating the experience as entertainment) saw it as what you would expect in a dark, old building past your bedtime where a certain atmosphere had been set up and you were being guided in a certain way to certain conclusions. In the light of day it actually didn't mean squat, and the most "convincing" "evidence" of that night is readily explained via the "ideomotor effect". But if you really want/need it to be evidence for something else, then the unsexy explanation will be rejected, every time. Even though it is the most likely. Also, my wife had ego invested in insisting that she didn't move those divining rods she was handed, they moved themselves -- it would offend her rational self-image that the unconscious connection between her brain and her hands could be overridden even when she was consciously resisting it. Although in her defense, even she in the end assigned it to "interesting but not definitely known or understood".

[Minimalist]

Exactly what happened with my dad.  Two days before he died he was virtually comatose in hospice.  The next day I brought my dog up to see him and he was laughing and petting the dog.  The next day we got a phone call at 3 in the morning that he had taken a turn for the worse and they didn't expect him to last long.  They were right.

The hospice nurse, who apparently sees this all the time, said it was not unusual for patients to rally briefly.  So, sorry Ronny, no miracle.  Just business as usual.

[adey67]

Exactly what happened with my dad.  Two days before he died he was virtually comatose in hospice.  The next day I brought my dog up to see him and he was laughing and petting the dog.  The next day we got a phone call at 3 in the morning that he had taken a turn for the worse and they didn't expect him to last long.  They were right.

The hospice nurse, who apparently sees this all the time, said it was not unusual for patients to rally briefly.  So, sorry Ronny, no miracle.  Just business as usual.

Unfortunately if you read Ron's post he already anticipated our replies and disqualified them, that's what's tragic here tbh.

[Minimalist]

I do not worry about the opinions of religitard shitheads like Ronny.  This jesus shit turns brains to mush.

[Bucky Ball]

"Near death" experiences have been debunked.
Those who work in hospitals see these sorts of things all the time.
They are totally common, and prove nothing.
No one EVER has any information that is special, or that they didn't know about before, or that comes from a different culture.

[Dancefortwo]

"Near death" experiences have been debunked.
Those who work in hospitals see these sorts of things all the time.
They are totally common, and prove nothing.
No one EVER has any information that is special, or that they didn't know about before, or that comes from a different culture.

Yup.   NDE's are clearly influenced by one's social upbringing and belief system.  Hindu's see the afterlife that they were brought up to believe in, same with Muslims.   

I had a long debate with someone online about a case in which the patient suposedly had an NDE while their brain showed no vital signs. It was claimed that the person was clinically brain dead while having a NDE.   I turned the debate around when I had a lightbulb realization that there is no possible way to know when the patient has the NDE.  It's just an assumption and wishful thinking by those who believe in an afterlife that NDE's are happening when the person has no brain function.  But think about it, there is no brain clock ticking away to pinpoint the moment  these visions are happening. An NDE can happen when the person is going into the brain crisis or when they're coming out of it.  But notice how believers invariably claim it's when the person is clinically dead that the NDE happens.

[Dānu]

"Near death" experiences have been debunked.
Those who work in hospitals see these sorts of things all the time.
They are totally common, and prove nothing.
No one EVER has any information that is special, or that they didn't know about before, or that comes from a different culture.

Yup.   NDE's are clearly influenced by one's social upbringing and belief system.  Hindu's see the afterlife that they were brought up to believe in, same with Muslims.   

I had a long debate with someone online about a case in which the patient suposedly had an NDE while their brain showed no vital signs. It was claimed that the person was clinically brain dead while having a NDE.   I turned the debate around when I had a lightbulb realization that there is no possible way to know when the patient has the NDE.  It's just an assumption and wishful thinking by those who believe in an afterlife that NDE's are happening when the person has no brain function.  But think about it, there is no brain clock ticking away to pinpoint the moment  these visions are happening. An NDE can happen when the person is going into the brain crisis or when they're coming out of it.  But notice how believers invariably claim it's when the person is clinically dead that the NDE happens.

Supposedly the Pam Reynolds case defies this analysis, but only because it's consistently misrepresented.

[Dancefortwo]

Supposedly the Pam Reynolds case defies this analysis, but only because it's consistently misrepresented.

What is the Pam Reynolds case and why it is consistently misrepresented?

[OakTree500]

"Near death" experiences have been debunked.
Those who work in hospitals see these sorts of things all the time.
They are totally common, and prove nothing.
No one EVER has any information that is special, or that they didn't know about before, or that comes from a different culture.

Plus the amount of cases where people are asked if they "saw a bright light" or whatever, and the majority say "I saw nothing, it was just black, like going to sleep" - which ultimately is the correct answer. Any sort of "vision" or thing like that has been attributed to bleeds in the brain or blood pooling in certain areas, unless I'm incorrect.

[Cavebear]

The years are uncertain, so take them as general.  In 2011, I received a call from a hospital to come and take my Dad out.  I had no idea he was even in a hospital.  The hospital person said he had driven himself to them after a fall and they had been taking care of him but he needed to leave that day.  He was 1500 miles away.  I explained I had no way to get there immediately.  They said he had used up his insurance but had found my name in his wallet.  I asked what would happen if I couldn't get there that day and they mentioned "ward of the state".  nd I asked why they hadn't called before.  Basically, they said they hadn't had to worry until his insurance ran out.

Between some threats of OK, make him a "ward of the state" and some logical discussion, they finally admitted he was sufferring dementia and could not live alone, but they could transfer him to a place across the street.  Which was a hospice his insurance would not cover.

We eventually agreed that they would keep him a week while I made arrangements.  The fact that I was 1500 miles away never seemed to matter to them.  I went through hoops arranging to have Dad move in with me.  The logistics were "simple".  I and my younger brother would fly down, take Dad out of the hospital. Brother would drive Dad in his car packed with all the basic stuff he needed.  He liked driving; I hate it.  I would fly back home, get a bed setup in a second room and be there where they arrived.

We got there (a long series of screw-ups at the airport) and got Dad.  I drove us all to his community.  Which was gated...  The guard would let us in without written approval.  I pointed out that Dad WAS the resident but demented.  This confused the guard no end, as Dad had no ID on him and no resident sticker in the car.  Eventually, I got a visitor permit.

The A/C had failed (no idea for how long).  There were bugs running around.  It was 100F.  The fridge was empty except for a thawed pack of fishsticks and an orange.  

I spent an hour getting an A/C repairman out to do repairs (mentioning demented parent fresh out of the hospital did help).  It turned out the whole house wiring was shot, but the reapir guy fixed enough to get it working.  Oh wonderful A/C!  And then the repair guy would take my credit card (tes I was willing to pay, sons do that).  Of all things to forget, my checkbook.  But who doesn't take a credit card?  So I had to get Dad to write a check.  The repair guy understood.  He deals with demented people often.  Dad grumbled.  But he did write it.

Afterwards I went out and found chinese takeout for all of us.  Dad ate ferociously.  A month of hospital food and you would too.  Then he came over and asked me "who are you and why are you in my house".  That was a shock.  I didn't understand about dementia until then.  I told him I was his eldest son and that the other guy was was his younger son.  He was uncertain.

Later we talked and he thought he had been in a hotel in PA the past few weeks playing golf.  Dad did play golf.  But he had been in FL.  In a hospital.

The next day, I found a box of plastic trash bags under the sink and my brother and I started filling up the back seat and trunk of Dad's car with everything we could find that might be useful to him at my house.  Clothes mostly, but also any remembrances of Mom (who died earlier).  I was not surprised that all her stuff was still in the dresser drawers, but I didn't pack that stuff.  I even packed his golf clubs for something he would remember.

I forgot that the clothes he actually wore were in the laundry hamper.  This isn't something you have to think about very often.  

So Younger brother  drove 1500 miles straight for 2 days one motel stop.  I had stayed behind a day to arrange to shut of routine bills like newspaper, trash pickup etc.  Utilities stayed on.  I barely got back home before Younger Brother arrived with Dad.  

It was apparently a hard trip.  Dad thought he was kidnapped and Younger Brother was going through the $500 I'd given him for expenses (yeah, I paid for everything).  They arrived at midnight just after I had set up a bed I'd bought.

Younger brother was pissed, I was frazzled, and Dad was demented.  What a great way to end a day.  And part of the deal was that, since Dad couldn't drive anymore and brother really needed a working c, I had to get Dad to sign off the title.  He thought he was not only kidnapped from a nice hotel in PA, we were trying to rob him.  I eventually got Dad to sign the car title away and brother drove it home.

The next day, Dad didn't remember any of it and thought it was his house.  And that's when I learned abound Sundown Syndrome.
It was a very confusing 2 years after that.  One day did not lead to the next and he often thought he was in places he had never lived.  After 2 years, I couldn't give him enough care and my sister who was in the hafway house business found a good assisted living facility near her and they took Dad there.  He lived another year, not having the slightest idea where he was, who he was, or who anyone else was.  

At least Dad never did say he saw any "bright lights" or deities at the end.

I don't want to go out demented...  There better be "Some Good Pill"...

[EvieTheAvocado]

Christianity is shit.

[Cavebear]

Christianity is shit.

Yeah, OK. any particular reason? I mean, all the others are, too. So is there something special you think is shit about Christianity?

[Minimalist]

The only thing special about jesusism is that it is in our faces every day.  I'd despise islam even more than I do if I lived around a bunch of the chanting fools.

[Cheerful Charlie]

The biggest problem with Christianity is that many Christians are anti-intellectual fools who insist on meddling with everybody else based on nonsense. They refuse to use reason.

[Minimalist]

Right you are.

“The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians.”

― H.L. Mencken

[EvieTheAvocado]

Christianity is shit.

Yeah, OK. any particular reason? I mean, all the others are, too. So is there something special you think is shit about Christianity?

No.

I didn't say "Christianity is the only religion that's shit."

ALL religions are shit, yes.

But I'm dealing with Christianity right now as the OP is a Christian.

Woah, I'm so deep! How am I so profound with my "You like X, huh? Well, X is shit." stuff?!

[Bucky Ball]

Exactly what happened with my dad.  Two days before he died he was virtually comatose in hospice.  The next day I brought my dog up to see him and he was laughing and petting the dog.  The next day we got a phone call at 3 in the morning that he had taken a turn for the worse and they didn't expect him to last long.  They were right.

The hospice nurse, who apparently sees this all the time, said it was not unusual for patients to rally briefly.  So, sorry Ronny, no miracle.  Just business as usual.

That pre-death type of "rally" happens so often it's kind of considered as "ominous". 
My great granny had her rally, and we're still laughing about it. 
She had been in a coma for about a week. They (maybe) had been giving her sips of water, but other than that she hadn't eaten for about a week. I'm not sure why he was visiting that day, (maybe he knew her ??), but the Archbishop (Catholic) of Los Angeles stopped to say a prayer over her. She just happened to have her "rally" when he was standing there, and she woke up. When she woke up, she said (just seeing someone standing there) .."get me some orange juice and some soup, and don't make me wait all day".   Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. LOL.

[grympy]

Exactly what happened with my dad.  Two days before he died he was virtually comatose in hospice.  The next day I brought my dog up to see him and he was laughing and petting the dog.  The next day we got a phone call at 3 in the morning that he had taken a turn for the worse and they didn't expect him to last long.  They were right.

The hospice nurse, who apparently sees this all the time, said it was not unusual for patients to rally briefly.  So, sorry Ronny, no miracle.  Just business as usual.

That pre-death type of "rally" happens so often it's kind of considered as "ominous". 
My great granny had her rally, and we're still laughing about it. 
She had been in a coma for about a week. They (maybe) had been giving her sips of water, but other than that she hadn't eaten for about a week. I'm not sure why he was visiting that day, (maybe he knew her ??), but the Archbishop (Catholic) of Los Angeles stopped to say a prayer over her. She just happened to have her "rally" when he was standing there, and she woke up. When she woke up, she said (just seeing someone standing there) .."get me some orange juice and some soup, and don't make me wait all day".   Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. LOL.

 My mum had opted for palliative care only. Was non responsive. Woke up, demanded ice cream,  ate it and went back into her coma.  She died 12 hours later.