Got this one today: How do you cope with not knowing your future once you die?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
Stupid things the religious say
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Got this one today: How do you cope with not knowing your future once you die?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
(12-09-2019, 11:56 PM)brewerb Wrote: Got this one today: How do you cope with not knowing your future once you die? I'd respond, how do you pretend to know your future once you die? In particular, how do you pretend to know particularly fantastical and unlikely things about your future? How does this comfort you? How do you not doubt it? [shrug] Yeah, I know they'll say that they just KNOW, as if that were an answer. (12-10-2019, 03:55 AM)mordant Wrote:(12-09-2019, 11:56 PM)brewerb Wrote: Got this one today: How do you cope with not knowing your future once you die? And that's the thing.. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know.
He loves me?
(12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote: And that's the thing. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know. Yeah... well, for some of the Christian loonies I've encountered, I'd be willing to say that too many of them would enjoy that particular pastime—at least for the blokes, it'd remind them of their days as choirboys. I'm a creationist; I believe that man created God.
(12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote: And that's the thing.. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know. I wonder, do Christians have any understanding as to what eternity is? Imagine a diamond the size of Jupiter and once every billion years a fly lands on it, when this diamond is reduced to the size of a pea via the friction from the flies feet, is this approaching eternity? No, you haven't even started. And in all this time you are still in heaven thinking of your non believing family and friends suffering the indescribable agonies of hell. You will be terminally insane long before the fly makes its second approach for landing. You yourself will be begging for the pits of hell. Christians; be careful what you wish for!
A Jehovah's Witness who visited me during the early 1980's: "If the Bible isn't true, why was it written down?"
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
I heard Karl Marx said the same thing!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
(12-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Inkubus Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote: And that's the thing.. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know. How about the horrifying thought that the serial killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, who killed and possibly ate some of his 17 victims, converted to Christianity. He accepted Jesbus as his savior so if you believe Christian dogma shit then Jeffrey Dahmer is up in heaven along with his half eaten victims. And just for giggles, imagine Hitler went through the same Christian born again crap, would he be in heaven with Anne Frank and the other six million victims? Doesn't afterlife sound fun? (12-11-2019, 05:11 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Inkubus Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote: And that's the thing.. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know. Dahmer is in heaven, he was a born again Christian. 'Your face looks familiar young man.' So it should, you kept my head in a jar of acetone. Anthony Sears. (12-11-2019, 05:11 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Inkubus Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote: And that's the thing.. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know. Worse still, Cliff Richard is gonna be there, imagine an eternity of that shit.
He loves me?
(12-11-2019, 08:43 AM)NorthernBen Wrote:(12-11-2019, 05:11 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Inkubus Wrote: I wonder, do Christians have any understanding as to what eternity is? Imagine a diamond the size of Jupiter and once every billion years a fly lands on it, when this diamond is reduced to the size of a pea via the friction from the flies feet, is this approaching eternity? I had to google Clif Richard because I couldn't remember what he sang. Ewwww. Just thinking of the putrid, insipid people who, according to christian doctrine, are going to be in heaven makes my stomach turn. Blah! Imagine this piece of shit in heaven.
The problem is heaven is that human psychology would be out of place there. Human nature would not be a good match for what is supposed to happen there, and the only way to make heaven "work" would be to change humans and human nature in order to make the promises and expectations that are heaven possible. But then we would no longer be ourselves in some important ways, but somebody and something else. If we're simply saying that somebody who, in important ways, isn't us, is going to be happy there, then in what ways is that a promise toward me? It's not. It's just saying that someone who only resembles me, created from the likeness of me, is going to be happy there. Well, that's nice, but I'm not sure I want to be the person that I'd have to be then. I'd have to give up too many of the things that make being me worthwhile, and while I might be happy doing so, it's hard to believe that my happiness would fulfill the same constraints that make being happy here and now, and in important ways, my happiness there would be inauthentic. Why would anyone want a happiness that in its core is fundamentally inauthentic? That would seem to violate one of the core properties that makes any happiness meaningful and worth seeking. If we're just transformed into unthinking bots that meaninglessly drift from one euphoric stupor to the next, I have to ask why anyone thinks that I would even want that?
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies. Vivekananda (12-11-2019, 08:39 PM)Dānu Wrote: The problem is heaven is that human psychology would be out of place there. Human nature would not be a good match for what is supposed to happen there, and the only way to make heaven "work" would be to change humans and human nature in order to make the promises and expectations that are heaven possible. But then we would no longer be ourselves in some important ways, but somebody and something else. If we're simply saying that somebody who, in important ways, isn't us, is going to be happy there, then in what ways is that a promise toward me? It's not. It's just saying that someone who only resembles me, created from the likeness of me, is going to be happy there. Well, that's nice, but I'm not sure I want to be the person that I'd have to be then. I'd have to give up too many of the things that make being me worthwhile, and while I might be happy doing so, it's hard to believe that my happiness would fulfill the same constraints that make being happy here and now, and in important ways, my happiness there would be inauthentic. Why would anyone want a happiness that in its core is fundamentally inauthentic? That would seem to violate one of the core properties that makes any happiness meaningful and worth seeking. If we're just transformed into unthinking bots that meaninglessly drift from one euphoric stupor to the next, I have to ask why anyone thinks that I would even want that? *slow clap* she gets it! (12-10-2019, 10:08 PM)Inkubus Wrote:(12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote: And that's the thing.. None of them know exactly what it is they're in for, it could be anal probing every 20 minutes for all they know. When I was a Christian I had this not very thought-through notion that it was just magically going to be great. As Danu ably points out, we are creatures of time, not of eternity, and are ill-suited to it. But remember that fundamentalist Christians are constantly given the message that they are defective, broken, lowly worms who suffer in this life (and are not allowed to leave it prematurely) in part because they are not truly worthy of heaven and need to learn various lessons and so forth. Since they are unworthy of heaven anyway but god promises eternal bliss, then somehow they expect that god waves his hand and makes it work once he "calls you home". And this fits with the apostle Paul: "then shall this corruptible put on incorruption, then shall this mortal put on immortality". It was presented as a completely different state of being, and that it makes you not really human isn't a problem because in various direct and indirect ways, Christian dogma creates this notion of "evil" and then wrongly situates it in the physical world, particularly in our physical bodies. Christians see themselves, theologically at least, as shambling creepshows of rot, liquid with decay ... we are Not Ourselves now, so in the sweet by-and-by we will finally be what we always wanted to be and could never achieve -- sinless, faultless, perfect, and free even of the propensity to sin (the "sin nature"). One must also keep in mind that most Christians do not believe in "soul sleep", the notion that we have no awareness from the time we die until the physical resurrection of the body, which is generally seen as an en masse event which, for the particular eschatological dogma I was taught at least, at any given point in time is a bare minimum of 1,007 years in the future (don't ask me). So Christians expect to be discarnate, non-corporeal beings for some indeterminate but significant amount of time anyway. In their popular fiction that is generally depicted as a near-perfect illusion of a physical body, such that you aren't aware at first that you can walk through walls and such. Again -- magic to the rescue. In reality removing human consciousness from the physicality to which it is accustomed and inextricably linked, would be like putting someone in a sensory deprivation tank; madness would ensue in short order. (12-11-2019, 09:02 PM)mordant Wrote: But remember that fundamentalist Christians are constantly given the message that they are defective, broken, lowly worms who suffer in this life (and are not allowed to leave it prematurely) in part because they are not truly worthy of heaven and need to learn various lessons and so forth. I'm not real familiar with the theology, but my understanding is that what you've written hits the essential points. I just have to wonder how many typical Christians actually think of it that way in their daily lives, or, perhaps, maybe it runs along a spectrum, and some segments of Christianity take this theology more seriously than others. Not saying that my parents were typical, but I never got the impression that they really had any kind of consciousness of the sort that they thought that they were anything other than perfectly innocent. I doubt my sisters are any different. Maybe I'm just not privvy to their private thoughts on the matter, and in my ignorance assume something that isn't true. I lost my faith at a fairly early age, sometime between 5 and 13 years old, and don't really recall the time before that well enough to say what I felt and believed then.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies. Vivekananda (12-11-2019, 10:28 PM)Dānu Wrote:(12-11-2019, 09:02 PM)mordant Wrote: But remember that fundamentalist Christians are constantly given the message that they are defective, broken, lowly worms who suffer in this life (and are not allowed to leave it prematurely) in part because they are not truly worthy of heaven and need to learn various lessons and so forth. It is a spectrum, I'm sure, because I have encountered people who are far more tormented by notions of personal guilt and unworthiness than others. It is partly a function of their personality and the level of stridency and condemnation in their particular group. But it is also a bit schizophrenic ... people hold logically inconsistent and conflicting views. They can feel completely forgiven and guiltless and yet be intimidated by the notion of being in god's presence and buy into teachings about how one has to be "glorified" to be in god's presence. It also hinges somewhat on your particular eschatology (doctrine of the end times). We were taught that those who survive the Great Tribulation enjoy the "thousand year reign" of Christ on earth, but at the end of this period, some people are seduced by Satan and form a rebellion, at which point god casts those miscreants in the lake of fire and completely destroys and remakes heaven and earth. At this point the dead are bodily resurrected and are now apparently incapable of sin anymore, because apparently of their perfect new bodies which no longer carry the stain of sin. Crazy stuff, I know. But the general progression is from our alleged current state as less than perfect, to being absolutely perfect in an eventual heaven. How people take that on board is an individual thing but it definitely involves some sort of magical transformation that makes you other than what you are -- better, but still different. Christians seldom self-reflect on what they are hoping / asking for though. (12-10-2019, 10:01 AM)NorthernBen Wrote:(12-10-2019, 03:55 AM)mordant Wrote:(12-09-2019, 11:56 PM)brewerb Wrote: Got this one today: How do you cope with not knowing your future once you die? Indeed. OR perhaps be greeted by Adolf Hitler, wearing a tutu , carrying a large pineapple and a small mallet . Well, they can't prove I'm wrong (12-13-2019, 05:44 AM)grympy Wrote: Indeed. Bloody pineappleist. It's obvious that he would carry ein apfel, a true German fruit.
“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” ― Napoleon Bonaparte
An old buddy of mine from back in the day turned religious after marriage and deeply so after a close encounter with an Oklahoma twister.
"Doesn't that sound like God's grace to you?" No, it sounds like a convenience store freezer is where you wanna be in a tornado. He's Methodist, so it hasn't really changed his lifestyle. We got together a few months ago to honor the passing of a friend's mother. After the service we settled in at a bar for some day drinking. There's nothing like a few pints to spur a Christian towards leading a heathen to Jesus. After appeals to "something bigger," and "it can't just be random," he entreated me to "Quit resisting, JR." I said I had, long ago. And it feels great. I'm my own judge, and I don't have to keep searching for ways to believe in things that don't add up. The uncomfortable thing about such conversations is that I have no desire to bring anyone around to my way of thinking. I want to express my nonbelief without being too convincing. Religion has been good for my friend. He's very smart so this doesn't apply: religion can be a good thing for dumb people. They just need to shut up about it.
The following 6 users Like Ranjr's post:
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Q: How can you tell when the religious are spewing nonsense?
A: Their lips move.
12-13-2019, 08:34 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2019, 08:51 PM by mordant.)
Stupid things the religious say (12-13-2019, 07:16 PM)Ranjr Wrote: They just need to shut up about it. Well they want US to shut up about our doubts or disagreements with their dogma, and we don't like that, so I wouldn't put it quite that way. They need to quit trying to impose it or being otherwise impertinent. They need to stop proselytizing. Judaism gets along just fine without proselytizing for example. If you want to convert, they'll accommodate you and put you through the process, but they don't solicit it, ever (except maybe for the really fundamentalist ones, but they're a tiny minority). You have to ask, and show a genuine interest on your own. In other words believers need to have your attitude: they should be free to express their beliefs but not strive to change other people's minds. The only good convert to my way of thinking is an organic convert, who naturally arrives at a belief through life experiences and maturation of thought. When believers talk about their beliefs to me, I listen and nod and make vague noises that I understand where they are coming from and what it means to them (and in large measure I do, having been one of them in the past). But I also make it plain that while it's for them if they choose it, it's not for me. They are free to be as they are and I'm free to be as I am. The reason that many believers (mostly of the evangelical / fundamentalist persuasion) aren't comfortable with that is that they really don't have anything to offer that enough people find attractive. They will get those relatively few people looking to be told what to believe or do, who are insecure and fearful of being responsible for their own choices. They will get the lost looking to be found, the outsiders looking for acceptance. But that doesn't scale well or provide them with quality, low-maintenance comrades, so they try to use guilt or fear to drive more people into their embrace. They are also partially fear-driven: they believe in corporate guilt, so if too many people outside their group do too much sinning, god might judge and punish the righteous (them) along with the guilty (you). So they have to convince you to be more like them, even if you're outside their group. Hence opposition, for example, to gay marriage, even though they can't demonstrate any objective harms to them. What they can't articulate is that too many gay couples will bring down god's wrath on heterosexual couples at some point.
Point taken, mordant. The part you quoted didn't say what I really meant. By "they," I meant stupid people, religious or otherwise. And by "it," I meant "most things."
I remember reading one a few years ago on a post about climate change: "Only God can destroy the planet."
I asked her about nuclear weapons. I never got a response, because the OP deleted the entire thread.
Vera needs to come back, I demand it.
Why do you hate god?
You just ignore the evidence. Hitler was an atheist.
He loves me?
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