Historical Jesus, Biblical Jesus

[Free]

Actually I'm not calling him any such thing. 
Do you always react this childishly when you lose an argument ? 
There is no way in hell you're actually an historian.

I haven't lost anything. You haven't proven anything either. You are forced to interpret text to fit your narrative when the text doesn't explicitly say what you claim it does.

But I am only using what the text says, not what I need to interpret what it says. And the text as a whole says that Josephus disagreed with the Jews' belief that the Balaam prophecy was about their coming Messiah. 

And here you are trying to tell me that Josephus said that Vespasian was the Messiah spoken of in the Balaam prophecy. Except ... Josephus never said that.

You have made a choice to "believe."

I have not.

You're entitled to your uninformed opinion. 

You say you haven't lost. Your behavior says otherwise. Your juvenile attempt to misrepresent what I have presented as "belief" is dishonest and false, and you damn well know it, ... and the reason you did that was to dishonestly associate me with theism. Ya see, Free, you don't brook ANY opinion that differs from your own. You never have. That's not really the mindset of an academic historian, where disagreements are a way of life. With you, ONE and only ONE opinion is allowed, and any other seems to be a threat to you. You don't have the temperment of either an academic or an historian.

I provided you with quotes which back up what I said. You did nothing but scoff, and try to end the discussion ("period", "black.and.white" etc etc). For someone who claims to be an historian, you have quite the closed mind there. Most of the things I brought up, you knew absolutely nothing about. I provided a number of references which supported what I said. You provided nothing, except repeated assertions and "that's crazy". Your "that's crazy" proved that you didn't even KNOW about what is in fact the consensus of historians on the Josephus/Vespasian matter. You were wrong about that the messiah had to be Jewish. You knew nothing about the multiple times Josephus talks about the matter in the "Jewish War", and not only were you unaware of this, but you still persist in the false claim you have always pushed, that the Testimonium was written by Josephus, even though the entire book was in fact saying something else. 

Unless you're going to try to claim that the consensus of historians base their opinion (that agrees with me), on some sort of "belief", you're up shit creek without a paddle here. You seem to be up to being able, and wanting to discuss Richard Carrier's sex life. Maybe you should stick with that.

Grow up, Free.

You provided no quotes that do not back up what you say. You have provided no evidence whatsoever that Josephus' interpretation of the Balaam prophecy was that the Roman Vespasian was to be the Messiah and not a Jew. 

You have made the assumption that Josephus believed that the Balaam prophecy was in regards to Messiah. No where does Josephus express those beliefs. 

Yet Josephus literally expressed his beliefs that the Balaam prophecy was about the Romans conquering the Jews, with their leader being Vespasian.  In the very same paragraph where he talks about the oracles relating to Vespasian, Josephus says the following about another prophecy:

"for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." 

Again, Josephus is expressing his belief in that prophecy that Jerusalem, the holy house, and the temple would be taken by their enemies. He also says it again here:

"for there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews, and their own hand should pollute the temple of God. Now while these zealots did not [quite] disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment."


As we can see, Josephus is expressing his beliefs again that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, and blames the Jews for this prediction coming true as "they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment."

And once again ...

"And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them,--and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

So there we have Josephs expressing exactly what he believed according to prophecy. It is crystal clear that Josephus believed that the Romans and Vespasian would destroy the city, holy house, and the temple in a war. Now we come to what he described as an "ambiguous oracle:"

"But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, "about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly
despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction."

And again we see Josephus maintaining exactly the same beliefs. He believed that the Vespasian and the Roman legions would destroy Jerusalem, and applies these same beliefs to the Balaam prophecy. He disputed the beliefs of the Jews about the prophecy referring to a Jewish Messiah, and included the Balaam prophecy as being part of what he previously believed according to the other prophecies. This is clearly demonstrated by the last line of the Balaam prophecy above:

"these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction."

He includes their misunderstanding of the Balaam prophecy with their misunderstanding of the other prophecies (signals), and lays the groundwork to demonstrate that everything he believed about the prophecies- including the Balaam- was true, and the other Jews had it all wrong.

Per Josephus, all of the prophecies, including the Balaam, were all about the Romans destroying and taking sovereignty of Jerusalem. Vespasian becoming emperor in Judea had nothing to do with him being a Messiah, but only that the oracle was understood by Josephus as being part of all the other predictions involving the Romans conquering Jerusalem.

What Josephus believed was clear, and Atwill be damned.