(05-09-2020, 01:02 AM)Phaedrus Wrote: The way it's thriving here in 'Murica, though......

(05-09-2020, 12:43 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: IMO this day should be considered more important than Christmas. However I completely forgot until you just reminded me of it.

(05-09-2020, 01:01 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Here's hoping it doesn't take another threat of that sort to pull a good majority of people together, again. Forewarned is forearmed.

(05-09-2020, 06:52 AM)skyking Wrote: I know not how to say it, but my father would want you to keep the hope alive, suchow.

(05-08-2020, 07:34 PM)Szuchow Wrote: Happy 75th anniversary of victory over fascism comrades.



Now is a good time to remind everyone that action should be taken, least another such picture will be needed (probably with different countries though).

(05-08-2020, 07:34 PM)Szuchow Wrote: Happy 75th anniversary of victory over fascism comrades.



Now is a good time to remind everyone that action should be taken, least another such picture will be needed (probably with different countries though).

(05-09-2020, 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 07:34 PM)Szuchow Wrote: Happy 75th anniversary of victory over fascism comrades.



Now is a good time to remind everyone that action should be taken, least another such picture will be needed (probably with different countries though).

Whoop-de-fucking-do.  The triumph over one totalitarian regime that murdered millions by another totalitarian regime that murdered millions.  

(05-09-2020, 02:08 PM)Szuchow Wrote:

(05-09-2020, 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote:

(05-08-2020, 07:34 PM)Szuchow Wrote: Happy 75th anniversary of victory over fascism comrades.



Now is a good time to remind everyone that action should be taken, least another such picture will be needed (probably with different countries though).

Whoop-de-fucking-do.  The triumph over one totalitarian regime that murdered millions by another totalitarian regime that murdered millions.  

Only one of these regimes thought up thing called Generalplan Ost not realized only due to defeat and incompetence leading to said defeat. Both regimes were guilty of genocide but Reich one only stopped cause it lost the war. 

Victory of one regime lead to world that wasn't pretty (especially for people in Eastern Europe and USSR itself) but victory of the second would lead only to the mass graves according to nazis own plans.

(05-10-2020, 05:56 AM)Chas Wrote:

(05-09-2020, 02:08 PM)Szuchow Wrote:

(05-09-2020, 01:32 PM)Chas Wrote: Whoop-de-fucking-do.  The triumph over one totalitarian regime that murdered millions by another totalitarian regime that murdered millions.  

Only one of these regimes thought up thing called Generalplan Ost not realized only due to defeat and incompetence leading to said defeat. Both regimes were guilty of genocide but Reich one only stopped cause it lost the war. 

Victory of one regime lead to world that wasn't pretty (especially for people in Eastern Europe and USSR itself) but victory of the second would lead only to the mass graves according to nazis own plans.

The Nazis would have run out of victims. The Soviets wouldn't as they were willing and able to kill even loyal citizens.

I'm not saying one was worse than the other - they were both evil regimes but the USSR had more years of killing.

(05-10-2020, 01:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Both regimes were odious. At least we knocked out one in 45.

(05-10-2020, 06:47 AM)Szuchow Wrote: Nazis too did not have problem with killing their own - Aktion T4 is proof enough of this.

(05-10-2020, 02:55 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: I think chas was pointing to the killing of people just who were perfectly loyal to the regime, but were killed because
#1 Denunciation
#2 A certain number of "imperialist spies" HAD to be found and killed

Quote:The Stalin regime was based on terror, and power could only be upheld by having the population in constant terror of the regime and its organs.

Quote:The entire history of the NKWD until the end of WWII turns around arresting, torturing and mass murdering completely innocent people*, many of them being loyal citizens of the CCCP. Its leaders (Jagoda , Jeschow and Berija) were all just as despicable persons as any nazi criminal, arguably even worse in case of Berija for example, since he seemed to be even in private life something that can obly be described as an *animal*. He seemed to have loved raping and torturing just fo rhi spersonal satisfaction. Evidence was found in his house long after his demise. Jeschow was so *eager* in conducting the "big Terror" ordered by Stalin that he went too far and got killed. Yes he went too far with killing, even for Stalins taste.

Quote:I am not trying to apply the tu quoque fallacy, but the fact that the CCCP fought Nazi germany doesnt absolve this regime one bit from its responsibility for what it has done, nor does it absolve its supporters, internally and externally.

Quote:The big terror alone (until ca. 1938) killed russian citizens in excess of 1 million. Just the other day i saw a docu where an old woman told how she was arrested just for making a remark in public. She was arrested (8 monts pregnant or so), forced to abort, and then she disppeared in GULAG for some 10 years, for a fucking remark made in public. She wasnt even anti Stalin at that point. I am sure you know even more of those stories. Afaik it is still disputed who killed more russians, Adolf or Uncle Joe!

Quote:When you torture and kill people, systematically and indiscriminately to some point, does it matter if its 1 million or 6? Does it matter if the main focus are your own people (in Stalins case) or mainly people of countries you occupy?* Does it matter if you basically know they are innocent (big terror) or have some convoluted conviction that they bear some *guilt* (Hitler/Jews). When you not only arrest and kill people but whole families, just for being related to the innocents you just have killed, does it matter if you are Josef or Adolf? When you employ people who are clearly deranged as your willful accomplices, people that basically should be put behind bars themselves, does it matter if those deranged people are executing innocent in the basement of the Lubjanka or in some random lager? When you have guards watching over poor souls being worked to death, does it matter if this is beyond the polar circle for digging a useless canal (Jagoda) or in some random mine in Germany where V-weapons are build to win a war already lost? When you are literally purging your political opponents, or at least those you perceive to be, does it matter if its the "night of the long knifes" or some "Moscow trial"?

Quote:Where is the fundamental difference in those regimes? The only one i see is that one regime had a, sick and twisted, racial ideology that made them believe they had a right to do what they did. For everything else i only see gradual differences in the methods applied and the people hired to put those methods into practice.

Quote:Regarding "Generalplan Ost" i just want to remind that Stalin did not only have a plan, but put it into practice, to expand his oppressive regime (including puppet states) deep into central Europe, suppressing dissent whenever and wherever it may emerged, including moving the whole of Poland westwards, so former parts of Germany are now western Poland and parts of Poland are now Belarus.

Quote:*I think i dont have to tell you the various NKWD ordes given out to arrest and kill people. For example the one (1937 or 38) where people of german heritage are supposred to be arrested for being *spies* for Germany. Not post 1941, but in 1937!

Quote:**Being polish you know that Katyn was a soviet tempt at *decapitating* polands society and the red army watching the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto in 1944 from its VIP lounge, and doing absolutely nothing...for a reason

(05-10-2020, 01:46 PM)Szuchow Wrote:

(05-10-2020, 01:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Both regimes were odious. At least we knocked out one in 45.

Yes, but as I said before only one of these regimes came up with ideas like Generalplan Ost. Just like only one came up and went through with Shoah.

(05-10-2020, 03:42 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(05-10-2020, 01:46 PM)Szuchow Wrote:

(05-10-2020, 01:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Both regimes were odious. At least we knocked out one in 45.

Yes, but as I said before only one of these regimes came up with ideas like Generalplan Ost. Just like only one came up and went through with Shoah.

On the other hand, one came up with the GULag to imprison dissentients. One had Article 58 in its Constitution, that it enforced with hard labor that was very often fatal. One killed around 20 million of its own citizens for political "crimes" in the course of its 75 years.

Quote:I think once you engage in mass terror, the actual body count doesn't matter. That the Germans had long-term plans, while the Soviets groped from one horror to another chasing Stalin's delusions, is not really the crux of the matter to me. The crux is that both regimes were willing to engage in mass murder in pursuit of their political aims. To my mind, they're morally equivalent.

(05-10-2020, 03:42 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(05-10-2020, 01:46 PM)Szuchow Wrote:

(05-10-2020, 01:41 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Both regimes were odious. At least we knocked out one in 45.

Yes, but as I said before only one of these regimes came up with ideas like Generalplan Ost. Just like only one came up and went through with Shoah.

On the other hand, one came up with the GULag to imprison dissentients. One had Article 58 in its Constitution, that it enforced with hard labor that was very often fatal. One killed around 20 million of its own citizens for political "crimes" in the course of its 75 years.

I think once you engage in mass terror, the actual body count doesn't matter. That the Germans had long-term plans, while the Soviets groped from one horror to another chasing Stalin's delusions, is not really the crux of the matter to me. The crux is that both regimes were willing to engage in mass murder in pursuit of their political aims. To my mind, they're morally equivalent.